It Comes Out Of The Public Purse

[The Masked Tulip]

I know we are supposed to be living in the age of austerity but I am truly shocked by the Policing bill for last week's Cardiff versus Swansea clash - 373K!

Worse, the clubs only pay a fraction of this sum whilst we, the Public, pick up the rest. I suspose this is the same for footie matches up and down the country.

Frankly, I think the clubs should pay every single penny. I mean, why should the Public subsidise private businesses... Doh!

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/news/derby-clash-police-163-373k/article-2892905-detail/article.html

Barrister Janet Gedrych, prosecuting, said: "A total of 524 police officers were utilised during the policing of the match, ranging from constable to chief superintendent. Officers were utilised in policing in Swansea, in Cardiff and the away supporters' buses.

"The cost of policing the day itself stands at £285,303, while the cost of the post-match enquiry stands at £87,330 — a total cost of £372,633."

After being told that Swansea City Football Club contributed £48,000 to the policing of the match, Judge Diehl asked: "Who pays the balance?"

"It comes out of the public purse," replied Miss Gedrych.

[Self Employed Youth]

It's a complete joke.

And the women officers

Be cheaper to pay some singe mothers to strip off for the fans to quell trouble rather than pay some 5ft dolly bird in a uniform overtime.

I waked through my town centre today, and I'm unemployed bare in mind. The people selling poppies were young soldiers and they looked like the disabled out on a day trip. I towered above them and have some muscle, but not much compared to some of the Lats in the local factories.

Have we no men in this country anymore??

[billybong]

Considering how many matches there are each season (not all with same edge but still with lots of policing) the total per year must be absolutely huge. I can see some taxpayer contribution (under the current system) but the balance seems all wrong.

[The Masked Tulip]

Considering how many matches there are each season (not all with same edge but still with lots of policing) the total per year must be absolutely huge. I can see some taxpayer contribution (under the current system) but the balance seems all wrong.

Yes, exactly. This was one match - albeit, as you say, an edgy match but what about all the edgy matches each week across the country between Premiership, Championship, etc, teams.

The cost to the tax-payer must be enormous. It must run into many tens of millions at least.

[interestrateripoff]

I thought that clubs by law had to have a certain amount of police on duty?

Costs of £20-£30 per match for a steward and you have to pay £30 (approx when I asked a few years back) per hour for the police football clubs can't afford the police bills especially in the lower leagues.

[Democorruptcy]

If the money didn't come out of the public purse and the clubs had to fund it, then they wouldn't have as much money to spend on wages and those at the top might leave.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Redhat Sly

[The Masked Tulip]

Why are we subsidising this yob culture?

It seems to me this is askin to us subsidising the drinks companies, and the supermarkets which sell booze, by the A&Es from Thurs night to Sunday night being full of people as a result of alochol related injuries.

[babesagainstmachines]

Don't football clubs pay tax?

[Constable]

I know we are supposed to be living in the age of austerity but I am truly shocked by the Policing bill for last week's Cardiff versus Swansea clash - 373K!

Worse, the clubs only pay a fraction of this sum whilst we, the Public, pick up the rest. I suspose this is the same for footie matches up and down the country.

Frankly, I think the clubs should pay every single penny. I mean, why should the Public subsidise private businesses... Doh!

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/news/derby-clash-police-163-373k/article-2892905-detail/article.html

Who do you think picks up the policing bill for political party conferences? Should the NUS pay the bill for last week's demo policing costs?, or Socialist Worker for the annual May day riots? At least the club pay a proportion of the bill.

[Redcellar]

A counter argument could be that public order is not for a private entity to ensure. Ideally all clubs would like a peaceful crowd with no trouble. However it is the individuals who act as yobs and not the clubs who ask them to behave that way.

[miko]

Don't football clubs pay tax?

Not if they are losing money and most of them are .

[Lepista]

Only about £750 per cop for a 4-hour shift.

Bargain.

[Cinnamon]

Frankly, I think the clubs should pay every single penny. I mean, why should the Public subsidise private businesses... Doh!

I initially agreed with you, but then I thought: the fans(?) are engaging in criminal acts which is why the police is needed -- the clubs are actually the victims here, not the perps.

If we start to charge a business because of the conduct of their customers, how about charging TESCO for feeding them, public transport for getting them there, Primark for clothing them, and so on?

And why stop at shops, if someone gets burglared it's because they left their stuff accessible, should the community have to foot the bill for their carelessness?

Public order is and should remain a public issue -- people behaving badly at football games because they can also behave badly in other situations whenever they can.

[kagiso]

I initially agreed with you, but then I thought: the fans(?) are engaging in criminal acts which is why the police is needed -- the clubs are actually the victims here, not the perps.

If we start to charge a business because of the conduct of their customers, how about charging TESCO for feeding them, public transport for getting them there, Primark for clothing them, and so on?

And why stop at shops, if someone gets burglared it's because they left their stuff accessible, should the community have to foot the bill for their carelessness?

Public order is and should remain a public issue -- people behaving badly at football games because they can also behave badly in other situations whenever they can.

It is of course possible that if the clubs were charged fully for the policing they might make more efforts to control their fans behaviour. It would, for instance, be trivial for them to set up membership systems, and bar anybody involved in trouble.

In economics terms this is an externality that should be forcibly priced into the business model. And unusually for externalities, in this case it would be trivially easy to do so.

The comparison with political marching is not reasonable, those aren't cash raising businesses, they are a fundamental part of democracy.

[Redcellar]

It is of course possible that if the clubs were charged fully for the policing they might make more efforts to control their fans behaviour. It would, for instance, be trivial for them to set up membership systems, and bar anybody involved in trouble.

In economics terms this is an externality that should be forcibly priced into the business model. And unusually for externalities, in this case it would be trivially easy to do so.

The comparison with political marching is not reasonable, those aren't cash raising businesses, they are a fundamental part of democracy.

But you are wrongly presuming that the trouble is occuring inside the ground. Actually there is minimal trouble in a ground. The vast majority is outside away from the venue, hence the requirements for large police numbers to escort away fans to coaches, and move home fans safely away from the venue too.

A licensing system / membership would not be applicable.

I wonder what the costs for Friday and Saturday night policing on Britains beer swelled streets are? I would not be surprise if they are comparable, yet there is no talk of charging pubs, clubs, restaurants and takeaways for this.

[stormymonday_2011]

Don't football clubs pay tax?

Football clubs owe tax. They rarely actually pay it.

The Revenue are owed massive arrears by half the football league

Football has been a state susbsidised industry for decades.

[billybong]

"A total of 524 police officers were utilised during the policing of the match, ranging from constable to chief superintendent. Officers were utilised in policing in Swansea, in Cardiff and the away supporters' buses.

I must say in the old days (you know before everybody had to SIT DOWN!! and DON'T FALL ASLEEP!!) and when there was supposed to be so much football yobbery I'm sure they didn't have such high numbers even for edgy matches, far from it. I mean to say 524, I ask you.

From that it looks like the yobbery hasn't really diminished (although I don't really believe that from the so little yobbery reported) but there's much less of it inside the grounds but what there is outside the grounds takes a lot more policing. Good for overtime I imagine and with getting on for likely £hundreds of millions it gives another push for "the consumer society". At taxpayer expense.

Edited November 13, 2010 by billybong

[Fairies Wear Boots]

I must say in the old days (you know before everybody had to SIT DOWN!! and DON'T FALL ASLEEP!!) and when there was supposed to be so much football yobbery I'm sure they didn't have such high numbers even for edgy matches, far from it. I mean to say 524, I ask you.

From that it looks like the yobbery hasn't really diminished but there's much less of it inside the grounds but what there is outside the grounds takes a lot more policing. Good for overtime I imagine and with getting on for likely £hundreds of millions it gives another push for "the consumer society". At taxpayer expense.

Hang on. It all 'kicked off' (excuse the pun) so extra police were called in. That's why people were in court and why it was 270K for policing and 80 K for court costs.

[tinker]

We all realise that football is a bubble*, but the scandal surely is that to police an event the cost is put at £285,000.

What rate are the boys in blue charging?

£50 per hour or more? When you could get an accredited private security firm doing it for £15 an hour or less.

It just more Rip off Britain and the burgeoning bureaucracy that we have to go through.

*BTW the football bubble is one that really needs to pop.

[billybong]

Hang on. It all 'kicked off' (excuse the pun) so extra police were called in. That's why people were in court and why it was 270K for policing and 80 K for court costs.

That suggests they had hundreds on standby and that also suggests that just about every match has a similar number on standby in case it all kicked off (for whatever reason and not necessarily because the match was edgy to start with).

It could just be because a lot of fans fell asleep and the stewards couldn't cope with that.

M'Lord so many fell asleep zzzzzzzzzzz that we just had to bring in the standby force.

Fall asleep or act like a yob it's the same, kerching!, taxpayer shells out.

Edited November 13, 2010 by billybong

[tim123]

I thought that clubs by law had to have a certain amount of police on duty?

Costs of £20-£30 per match for a steward and you have to pay £30 (approx when I asked a few years back) per hour for the police football clubs can't afford the police bills especially in the lower leagues.

Clubs pay for polcing inside the ground

The taxpayer pays for policing outside of the ground

[babesagainstmachines]

Not if they are losing money and most of them are .

They pay a shed load in wages though, which is taxed at 50% for the most part.

[tim123]

It is of course possible that if the clubs were charged fully for the policing they might make more efforts to control their fans behaviour. It would, for instance, be trivial for them to set up membership systems, and bar anybody involved in trouble.

But how could they stop non members from turning up outside?

In the bad old days when each club had a supporters "gang", the members of said gang would turn up for the fight before the match with he opposition gang, with no intention whatsoever of watching the match afterwards.

tim

[OnionTerror]

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2009/jul/uk-cost-of-policing-football.pdf

It is impossible to provide “average” figures for the amount football clubs spend on policing annually as every club is different and requires different methods of policing.

However, in absolute terms the figures are substantial. Wigan Athletic told us that in 2007– 08 they paid “about £240,000” for policing; while Hereford United paid £80,000. In total football clubs paid “between “£12 and £15 million” to the police in the season 2007–08, in addition to the £1 billion they paid the exchequer in taxes. Derek Smith also told us that the “cost of policing in terms of the total revenue income of football was … about 0.6 to 0.7%”. This figure does not include the costs of stewarding at each game—which over the course of a season runs into many thousands of pounds—or the amount clubs have spent in recent years on CCTV and all-seater stadia, which all increase safety inside the grounds.

While we are of the opinion that clubs should pay the full cost of the policing which can be directly attributed to their match we also urge the police to recognise the amount

of effort the clubs have expended to increase safety at the grounds and the change in atmosphere at football matches. We doubt the necessity of deploying up to 150 police officers on top of the hundreds of stewards at an event which has on average 1.2 arrests. Unless there is specific intelligence of possible trouble which can be shared with the clubs, the police should consider reducing the deployment of officers and they should share intelligence with the clubs to better identify the policing needs and reduce them wherever possible.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Dave Beans