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Vince Cable Gets His Way On Intra-Company Transfers


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Your astonishment is your shortcoming not ours, and there are no knives protruding between my shoulder blades, which as a computer science graduate of 5 years one would assume there would be.

I don't expect the government to take half-arsed steps to protect my 'value' which would in practice do nothing of benefit.

Block companies from taking quality foreign workers and the UK becomes less attractive to invest in. I'd rather have to compete on merit than watch companies avoid setting up in the UK to begin with. The government should be focusing on encouraging companies to create jobs, I'll deal with getting them tyvm.

Are you happy to compete with a 20 to 40% salary disadvantage?

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Your astonishment is your shortcoming not ours, and there are no knives protruding between my shoulder blades, which as a computer science graduate of 5 years one would assume there would be.

I don't expect the government to take half-arsed steps to protect my 'value' which would in practice do nothing of benefit.

Block companies from taking quality foreign workers and the UK becomes less attractive to invest in. I'd rather have to compete on merit than watch companies avoid setting up in the UK to begin with. The government should be focusing on encouraging companies to create jobs, I'll deal with getting them tyvm.

have you even worked in the IT outsourcing sector lately?

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Your astonishment is your shortcoming not ours, and there are no knives protruding between my shoulder blades, which as a computer science graduate of 5 years one would assume there would be.

I don't expect the government to take half-arsed steps to protect my 'value' which would in practice do nothing of benefit.

Block companies from taking quality foreign workers and the UK becomes less attractive to invest in. I'd rather have to compete on merit than watch companies avoid setting up in the UK to begin with. The government should be focusing on encouraging companies to create jobs, I'll deal with getting them tyvm.

Did you actually read Mad Penguins post? Just above your one. I had no idea that was how Indian onshorers were paid. No NI (employers or employee!). Sorry but I think quite a few people will be piffed about that. My point was about a level playing field which it is not. You are not going to compete on "merit" you will compete on cost. And you will lose. Every time.

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Did you actually read Mad Penguins post? Just above your one. I had no idea that was how Indian onshorers were paid. No NI (employers or employee!). Sorry but I think quite a few people will be piffed about that. My point was about a level playing field which it is not. You are not going to compete on "merit" you will compete on cost. And you will lose. Every time.

not just that :

"Adding up visa costs, flights, accommodation and salary should if anything make using an intra company transfer rack up the expenses tally. It doesn't look profitable. Until you realise expenses and tax free allowances can be counted towards the "salary" "

and

"They can be paid a minimum wage salary and grab a tax free allowance of up to £18,000. As a friend of TechEye puts it: "The UK Borders Agency rules are passed, their Indian IT workers are happy, and they can significantly undercut UK workers, void UK income tax and national insurance, both employer and employee." "

:blink:

Edited by madpenguin
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What I want to know is, what are the unemployed going to live on? You know, the new graduates, the now-unemployed IT workers, the ex-public sector employees...

Oh, wait, of course, they're going to get all those jobs created by the employers who've persuaded the government that supporting business means letting them import workers. :lol::lol::lol:

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What I want to know is, what are the unemployed going to live on? You know, the new graduates, the now-unemployed IT workers, the ex-public sector employees...

Oh, wait, of course, they're going to get all those jobs created by the employers who've persuaded the government that supporting business means letting them import workers. :lol::lol::lol:

Yeah, trouble is we don't see the big picture like Vince, depriving UK IT workers of jobs, undercutting their wages heavily, not taking tax from foreign ICT's and giving them tax breaks is good for the UK economy :D

Edited by madpenguin
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Did you actually read Mad Penguins post? Just above your one. I had no idea that was how Indian onshorers were paid. No NI (employers or employee!). Sorry but I think quite a few people will be piffed about that. My point was about a level playing field which it is not. You are not going to compete on "merit" you will compete on cost. And you will lose. Every time.

+1

How do you compete against an Indian IT contractor who is paying a lower rate of tax than his UK counterparts?

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+1

How do you compete against an Indian IT contractor who is paying a lower rate of tax than his UK counterparts?

I imagine that many contractors saw the writing on the wall years ago. They are businessmen after all. Did the sharper ones get into the off-shoring/on-shoring business and, using the same model in other countries, bring valuable overseas earnings back to Blighty?

p-o-p

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Wow. Do I recognise this mentality or what? Some IT workers need to get over themselves. Many mediocre IT workers expect to continue to command premium wages for what have often become commodity services. They better get real and accept that they are not more important than the company or their colleagues. The fact that similar services can be provided at rock bottom prices by Indians should make that pretty obvious. These Indians may not have exactly the same IT skills but I bet they've got a much better attitude.

Britain is not being held hostage by foreigners. We are being told by a small section of our own workforce that they are a special case and that we should pay over the odds so that they don't have to adapt or develop. Britain remains one of the worlds most successful economies precisely because it realises that change, development and open competition are what creates opportunity. 15 years ago the vast majority of these IT jobs didn't even exist. Today the UK is an important play in the global digital economy and we didn't get to that position by trying to maintain the status quo.

Replace *IT* with something that either you or a member of your family does and you might get an idea of what the future will bring for you. If this precedent is set so far as it can happen with IT it can happen with almost any other form of skilled labour.

Reap what you sow.

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Replace *IT* with something that either you or a member of your family does and you might get an idea of what the future will bring for you. If this precedent is set so far as it can happen with IT it can happen with almost any other form of skilled labour.

Reap what you sow.

As I stated earlier, from what I hear they are already doing this on a small scale for accounts and law (mostly for the "grunt work", but hey that's how it started with IT) :angry:

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It sounds very much like the government are following a very dishonest policy made up of many components but all driving towards the continual weakening of the UK and it's workers now including professional and managerial.

Part tax policy for onshorers possibly to control the level of inflow and UK unemployment, part propaganda to ease UK workers worries, part lies for the same reason, hiding the truth through misleading stats, misleading statements on actions being taken and quite a few other components directed towards the same objectives.

They are using the difficulty people have in reacting to significant changes that occur gradually

Quite apart from the obvious betrayals of the UK people my main objection to this is its self serving dishonesty without giving voters a chance to vote on possible alternatives or even allowing possible alternatives to be presented for debate.

That's a separate issue from the lack of democracy shown regarding the referendum on the eu which has demonstrated a similar level of dishonesty.

Edited by billybong
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Replace *IT* with something that either you or a member of your family does and you might get an idea of what the future will bring for you. If this precedent is set so far as it can happen with IT it can happen with almost any other form of skilled labour.

Reap what you sow.

Here's a tip for all you skilled workers out there. If your job can be done for a fraction of the price by Bargain Basement Bobby from Bangalore then you need to look up the 21st Century definition of skilled. I take madpenguin's comments about tax. It's true that our tax system has not caught up with the pace of globalisation. But if people think that globalisation or technology is going to be held back they've got another thing coming. People should take the hint. The British checkout staff at my local TescoMetro were replace by Indians (probably on student visas) some years ago. Those Indians are now being replace by machines - invented and built by all you clever IT workers. We've all got to run faster and faster to keep up and stay competitive. This country needs to snap out of its mindset that someone else will pay extra to maintain our lifestyles.

Edited by Orsino
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The difficulty going forward is that the youth of today are going to be wondering if it's worth bothing with any form of higher education.

Over heard my brother discussing with his son what he should study for at school. Neither of them even mentioned bothering with higher education in fact my brother warned him that the employment market can change so fast so not to specialize.

It was the opposite when I was young, friends all had ideas and a lot of us did going on with our education getting degrees or professional qualifications.

I feel sorry for my brothers son's generation, they've had their financial as well as professional future stolen.

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Here's a tip for all you skilled workers out there. If your job can be done for a fraction of the price by Bargain Basement Bobby from Bangalore then you need to look up the 21st Century definition of skilled. I take madpenguin's comments about tax. It's true that our tax system has not caught up with the pace of globalisation. But if people think that globalisation or technology is going to be held back they've got another thing coming. People should take the hint. The British checkout staff at my local TescoMetro were replace by Indians (probably on student visas) some years ago. Those Indians are now being replace by machines - invented and built by all you clever IT workers. We've all got to run faster and faster to keep up and stay competitive. This country needs to snap out of its mindset that someone else will pay extra to maintain our lifestyles.

You have just given an example of IT workers and check out operatives both being replaced by non EU staff, as this is representing two different levels of job skill (low and high) exactly what do you propose we become skilled in?, there is no job this doesn't potentially touch and actually it occurs because Governments allow it not because of globalisation, globalisation only works with the consent of Government.

Don't believe me?, try getting several hundred visa's to ship other nationalities low paid workers into India or China and see the reception you get. India has some of the most restrictive employment regulations in the world.

Edited by madpenguin
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Anyone with a basic understanding of economics would understand that destroying your tax base is doubleplusungood.

Bringing lots of Indians over here, letting them get away with paying far less tax than the UK employees that they are displacing while enjoying the same benefits (e.g. hospitals)... it's just nuts.

At least the Indians that I lost my job to went back to Chennai after I showed them how to do it.

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We've all got to run faster and faster to keep up and stay competitive.

You know I'm always intrigued by these kind of statements, our lords and masters in Government (any Government) use this kind of language regularly.

Let me tell you a little story by way of example:

A couple of years ago I had a contract with an extremely large American mutlinational to work on the development of some very esoteric mapping software which was netherless sold shrink wrapped world wide.

Now the product itself had been designed by two extremely clever Cambridge graduates who had then sold it on to said multinational after it had become a success.

Now being Cambridge grads they designed their own object orientated programming language and database from the ground up (naturally).

The guys who were doing the development in the UK had worked on it from the word go, and we also had some very capable guys in the US.

At the end of the project when we shipped the team leader announced that no one would be retained on that product the company was shifting all future development to India (cue hysterical laughter from everyone including the Project manager making the announcement).

About a year later I kept getting desperate calls from agents looking for developers with even the most basic skills in this product, apparently the Indian development had been an abject disaster, and most of the UK and American staff had either got jobs with buyers of the product or were earning a fortune in consultancy.

Point is this wasn't a bit of Java or HTML this used an extremely unique skill set but still they tried to outsource it.

If the UK workforce developed anti gravity, or workable cold fusion of their own accord tomorrow it's obvious that within 5 years of development Chinese or Indian plants would be churning the new development out and the original English staff would be down the Jobcentre, that's how this works and to say otherwise is to be delusional.

Edited by madpenguin
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Wow. Do I recognise this mentality or what? Some IT workers need to get over themselves. Many mediocre IT workers expect to continue to command premium wages for what have often become commodity services. They better get real and accept that they are not more important than the company or their colleagues. The fact that similar services can be provided at rock bottom prices by Indians should make that pretty obvious. These Indians may not have exactly the same IT skills but I bet they've got a much better attitude.

Britain is not being held hostage by foreigners. We are being told by a small section of our own workforce that they are a special case and that we should pay over the odds so that they don't have to adapt or develop. Britain remains one of the worlds most successful economies precisely because it realises that change, development and open competition are what creates opportunity. 15 years ago the vast majority of these IT jobs didn't even exist. Today the UK is an important play in the global digital economy and we didn't get to that position by trying to maintain the status quo.

I don't believe that Indians have a better attitude at all. That's very subjective. They don't have the same initiative that the British do. Do you seriously believe that Britain will remain a successful economy? All the changes you talk about have happened too fast. Many of the IT jobs that have been taken did exist over 15 years ago and that is the problem. I'm far more pessimistic about Britain's future than you are. What do you suppose will replace the housing boom? What is it exactly that Britain does? We already know that the public sector employment and the ridiculous housing boom have kept the economy buoyant artificially. I'd like to know what jobs should be safe from invasion. The answer appears to be 'none', which is quite bizarre.

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I don't believe that Indians have a better attitude at all. That's very subjective. They don't have the same initiative that the British do. Do you seriously believe that Britain will remain a successful economy? All the changes you talk about have happened too fast. Many of the IT jobs that have been taken did exist over 15 years ago and that is the problem. I'm far more pessimistic about Britain's future than you are. What do you suppose will replace the housing boom? What is it exactly that Britain does? We already know that the public sector employment and the ridiculous housing boom have kept the economy buoyant artificially. I'd like to know what jobs should be safe from invasion. The answer appears to be 'none', which is quite bizarre.

There are a few other cultural differences in addition to the lack of initiative. Always saying "yes" for instance, so that you're never sure whether everything is OK until you find out it's far from OK further down the line.

There's a lack of experience, as the IT job market has expanded so rapidly in India, so often you're working with people who haven't learnt fundamental values like testing. The more experienced can job hop for better salaries, so the guys you really needed to be retained for a while can disappear all too quickly.

And the extent of ICT abuse in onshoring whole teams means that there are no longer the entry level jobs for the young people who will in future be required to manage these contracts from the UK side.

That also means that if you take some initiative and improve your skills, then that had better be with your eye on moving on to a new job (possibly out of IT altogether) because when your whole project team gets replaced nobody is going to do you any favours. You will be looking for something else to do, along with the good, the bad and the indifferent.

ICT was supposed to allow companies to bring specialist staff into the UK on a short term basis, and for that purpose I can understand why there are tax breaks that come with it. What it is actually being used for is to bring onshore huge teams of people that are anything but specialist in skills terms, many of them not many years out of university.

Didn't Theresa May suggest there would be a new £40,000 minimum salary requirement in order to ensure that only specialist staff are transferred, i.e. to get ICT back to its intended purpose.

I'm sure that's never really going to happen, or will be implemented ineffectually. The VIs want ICT to continue working just as it does now.

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At my company we have trying to recruit people in IT for a while. The majority of CVs coming in are from Indians on highly skilled migrant visas, where are all the UK workers supposedly looking for work? One thing I have found is that Indians really expand their CVs, they all claim to have skill you need but at interview clearly do not. I also work with teams based In India and while some are good, they are very reluctant to take responsibility and very quick to escalate. The blended team combining UK and Indians teams works ok, but I would never opt for a complete off shore

Basically we will employ the best person for the job not the cheapest, so the Indian does not have the advantage of anyone else for a uk based job. However in terms of sheer volume (80% of the CVs being Indian) the odds are it will be an Indian. The answer maybe ensuring IT degrees include work experience, I would always employ someone with more experience over just having a degree in IT, after all it's the experience that counts

With regard to ICT I used to work for a large outsouring company and we regularly got people over to plug skills gaps, we were wining contracts and had to provide the labour quickly. And ultimately when a company uses an outsourcer they don't expect to pay uk prices

Edited by boo
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where are all the UK workers supposedly looking for work?

Some have given up and retired or are doing other work, many others have left the UK (myself included), speaking from personal experience in Germany and the Netherlands you bump into experienced UK IT guys all the time.

If you are unable to compete against people being paid minimum wage salaries, not paying tax, getting their accommodation effectively free and being given tax free allowances by your own Government you tend to look for other alternatives.

The UK Government and companies have only themselves to blame for producing this situation.

What is the size of your companies program for hiring and training new IT staff? (Graduate or not), how much training do staff get a year? (I mean practical skills not "time management").

Based on my experience the average British company expects others to do the training, and that highly qualified employees will just emerge out of thin air.

Never mind, at least UK companies are making "savings" for now, that's got to be good hasn't it? <_<

Edited by madpenguin
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At my company we have trying to recruit people in IT for a while. The majority of CVs coming in are from Indians on highly skilled migrant visas, where are all the UK workers supposedly looking for work? One thing I have found is that Indians really expand their CVs, they all claim to have skill you need but at interview clearly do not. I also work with teams based In India and while some are good, they are very reluctant to take responsibility and very quick to escalate. The blended team combining UK and Indians teams works ok, but I would never opt for a complete off shore

Basically we will employ the best person for the job not the cheapest, so the Indian does not have the advantage of anyone else for a uk based job. However in terms of sheer volume (80% of the CVs being Indian) the odds are it will be an Indian. The answer maybe ensuring IT degrees include work experience, I would always employ someone with more experience over just having a degree in IT, after all it's the experience that counts

With regard to ICT I used to work for a large outsouring company and we regularly got people over to plug skills gaps, we were wining contracts and had to provide the labour quickly. And ultimately when a company uses an outsourcer they don't expect to pay uk prices

Just out of interest are those Indian CV's from people in the UK already or based in India looking to get over here?

And are they sent direct by the applicant themselves or is it agencies sending in the Indian CV's?

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