Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
ZeroSumGame

Company Transfers Exempt From Migrant Cap - Cameron

Recommended Posts

No surprise that Cameron would capitulate...................but disappointing never the less.

"Companies have been particularly angry about intra-company transfers being included in the cap - even though the Home Office believes some companies, particularly in the IT sector, have been transferring cheap staff to the UK to do jobs that could be filled by UK graduates."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11686231

We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others. :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

UK IT graduates don’t deserve to get a job, let them stay at home playing computer games; we need cheap engineers from the third world to drive British industry forward. What contribution have British engineers and scientist made to the world anyway?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Want to know the reason why:

http://www.techeye.net/business/uk-big-business-exploits-visa-loophole-to-decimate-it-jobs

Leave it to an American site to actually give us the nuts and bolts of this tax scam, yet all the British media are strangely silent.

:angry:

It can be substantially cheaper and more flexible for businesses to rely on on-shore resources rather than hiring permanent staff or using contractors. Approximately, the price of off-shoring from an Indian IT service company is cheapest at £120 a day. An onshore Indian IT worker at a client base will cost £300 a day. Compare that to an internal charge rate for a permanent client UK IT worker at £400 a day, covering pension and holiday pay as well as salary. Now compare that to a UK contractor at £500 a day including an agency cut and a UK consultant from an IT service company at £800 a day and the maths are fairly clear.

An Indian IT worker could potentially cost under £50 a day to their employer while being charged to the client at £120 a day. Tempting figures.

It begs some questions, and they mostly can be directed to the UK's intra company transfer visa.

The intra company visa does not require a job to be in an area with recognised work shortfalls and it does not need to be advertised to show that the work could be done by UK staff. The few restrictions in place are simple and at surface value they look reasonable. A foreign employee must have been working at a related organisation for at least a year, though it was at six months before April. There is a points based system in place. They must pass the threshold and be paid at least the going or appropriate rate for the job.

Typically the salary clocks in at £24,000. Adding up visa costs, flights, accommodation and salary should if anything make using an intra company transfer rack up the expenses tally. It doesn't look profitable. Until you realise expenses and tax free allowances can be counted towards the "salary". As a source tells TechEye: "This is complete madness."

IT service companies with the resources can negotiatie with HM Revenue & Customs blanket tax free payments and allowances which cover legitimate business expenses that employees incur having worked at a client site for the first two years. Because these are not salary payments, the HRMC considers them tax free and it means every employee doesn't have the burden of sending in receipts which must then be counted and tallied. The tax free allowance dispensation can be between roughly £1,000 and £1,500 each month.

So if these consultants are on-shore Indian IT workers, they can be sent to client sites. They can be paid a minimum wage salary and grab a tax free allowance of up to £18,000. As a friend of TechEye puts it: "The UK Borders Agency rules are passed, their Indian IT workers are happy, and they can significantly undercut UK workers, void UK income tax and national insurance, both employer and employee."

Indian IT workers on an intra company transfer visa pay very little tax and national insurance. By comparison a UK worker would pay a lot - the system is cutting its nose off to spite its face. Employers using temporary foreign workers gain a strong competitive advantage over local workers. This was noted by the Migration Advisor Committee in a report last August. It stressed the loophole leaves the system, and the UK, wide open to abuse.

The UK Border Agency recognised that allowances could be used to undercut UK workers, but in its statement at the end of March 2010 it decided not to take any action. See page 8, paragraphs 41 onwards, here.

Read more: http://www.techeye.net/business/uk-big-business-exploits-visa-loophole-to-decimate-it-jobs#ixzz14JOFQynw

Edited by madpenguin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not just IT.

The "new" accounts payable and HR people for my employer are being trained by the incumbents. they are of course all Indian.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not just IT.

The "new" accounts payable and HR people for my employer are being trained by the incumbents. they are of course all Indian.

Only reason for allowing this to continue must be that our politicians are looking to a nice happy life of consultancy and board room directorships with these companies.

It's not generating jobs, it's not generating tax, and the profits are likely all going offshore too (if they are even going to be taxed in the first place)

Ah well we can all look forward to a life spent at home on the dole, if this carries on, I heard they were making the same moves on accountancy and law

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only reason for allowing this to continue must be that our politicians are looking to a nice happy life of consultancy and board room directorships with these companies.

It's not generating jobs, it's not generating tax, and the profits are likely all going offshore too (if they are even going to be taxed in the first place)

Ah well we can all look forward to a life spent at home on the dole if this carries on, I'd heard they were making the same moves on accountancy and law

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Want to know the reason why:

http://www.techeye.net/business/uk-big-business-exploits-visa-loophole-to-decimate-it-jobs

Leave it to an American site to actually give us the nuts and bolts of this tax scam, yet all the British media are strangely silent.

:angry:

It can be substantially cheaper and more flexible for businesses to rely on on-shore resources rather than hiring permanent staff or using contractors. Approximately, the price of off-shoring from an Indian IT service company is cheapest at £120 a day. An onshore Indian IT worker at a client base will cost £300 a day. Compare that to an internal charge rate for a permanent client UK IT worker at £400 a day, covering pension and holiday pay as well as salary. Now compare that to a UK contractor at £500 a day including an agency cut and a UK consultant from an IT service company at £800 a day and the maths are fairly clear.

An Indian IT worker could potentially cost under £50 a day to their employer while being charged to the client at £120 a day. Tempting figures.

It begs some questions, and they mostly can be directed to the UK's intra company transfer visa.

The intra company visa does not require a job to be in an area with recognised work shortfalls and it does not need to be advertised to show that the work could be done by UK staff. The few restrictions in place are simple and at surface value they look reasonable. A foreign employee must have been working at a related organisation for at least a year, though it was at six months before April. There is a points based system in place. They must pass the threshold and be paid at least the going or appropriate rate for the job.

Typically the salary clocks in at £24,000. Adding up visa costs, flights, accommodation and salary should if anything make using an intra company transfer rack up the expenses tally. It doesn't look profitable. Until you realise expenses and tax free allowances can be counted towards the "salary". As a source tells TechEye: "This is complete madness."

IT service companies with the resources can negotiatie with HM Revenue & Customs blanket tax free payments and allowances which cover legitimate business expenses that employees incur having worked at a client site for the first two years. Because these are not salary payments, the HRMC considers them tax free and it means every employee doesn't have the burden of sending in receipts which must then be counted and tallied. The tax free allowance dispensation can be between roughly £1,000 and £1,500 each month.

So if these consultants are on-shore Indian IT workers, they can be sent to client sites. They can be paid a minimum wage salary and grab a tax free allowance of up to £18,000. As a friend of TechEye puts it: "The UK Borders Agency rules are passed, their Indian IT workers are happy, and they can significantly undercut UK workers, void UK income tax and national insurance, both employer and employee."

Indian IT workers on an intra company transfer visa pay very little tax and national insurance. By comparison a UK worker would pay a lot - the system is cutting its nose off to spite its face. Employers using temporary foreign workers gain a strong competitive advantage over local workers. This was noted by the Migration Advisor Committee in a report last August. It stressed the loophole leaves the system, and the UK, wide open to abuse.

The UK Border Agency recognised that allowances could be used to undercut UK workers, but in its statement at the end of March 2010 it decided not to take any action. See page 8, paragraphs 41 onwards, here.

Read more: http://www.techeye.net/business/uk-big-business-exploits-visa-loophole-to-decimate-it-jobs#ixzz14JOFQynw

Could I suggest that everybody brings this forcefully to the attention of their MPs, and tells the MPs what they think is wrong with it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no longer a line between politicians and business. The politicians are puppets that do as they are told by their masters.

Crash Gordon's "star chamber" were absolutely fuming when he did something with asking permission first:

3:11pm UK, Friday October 01, 2010

Rob Cole, Sky News Online

David Cameron has unveiled his panel of leading industry bosses who he says will help to shape the Government's economic policy.

Mr Cameron chairs a meeting of business leaders in Downing Street

The Prime Minister said the 19-person Business Advisory Group would meet every three months to "argue and debate".

He said the group, which follows a similar body which sought to advice Gordon Brown, offers a "real interchange with us about the priorities for growth, the priorities for the economy".

Sky's City editor Mark Kleinman exclusively revealed the Government's plans earlier this month.

On Thursday he reported Indian businessman Ratan Tata and the boss of Sony, Sir Howard Stringer, were the latest names to join the group.

Mr Tata is the head of Tata Group, India's largest conglomerate which owns Jaguar, Land Rover and Tetley Tea.

Sir Howard is the chairman and CEO of Sony, overseeing the entire businesses of Sony, including its media and electronics subsidiaries.

Mr Cameron told a meeting of business leaders at Downing Street: "I want to be absolutely clear - this is very much a pro-business, pro-enterprise, pro-competition Government.

"We want to work with you to deliver the agenda that will bring growth."

The 19 company chiefs include Paul Walsh of Diageo and Sir Martin Sorrell from WPP.

They will be joined by Justin King of Sainsbury's, Sam Laidlaw of Centrica, Sir Michael Rake of BT and Easyjet and Dick Olver of BAE Systems.

Kleinman told Jeff Randall Live: "The aim of the group is to add a touch of business credibility to the Prime Minister himself to show he's listening to the concerns of big business.

"But one of the potential pitfalls that befell Gordon Brown who had a similar group, was that many of the members of his council were incandescent when the Prime Minister introduced a rise in the top rate of income tax without consulting that group.

"That's something that will be of genuine interest to watch as this group gets its deliberations and advice under way, particularly on issues such as corporation tax."

Edited by Redhat Sly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny how all the related articles on this subject are suspiciously short on comments sections for this news.

Telegraph and Guardian don't have them Daily Mail does but when I put up a post with a link to the article I posted earlier it didn't make it past the mods.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist normally but the news for this seems managed and incredibly one sided i.e. a cap will deprive us of world beating surgeons and concert pianists, ignoring the fact that the vast majority of ICT's are low payed IT peons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no longer a line between politicians and business. The politicians are puppets that do as they are told by their masters.

Crash Gordon's "star chamber" were absolutely fuming when he did something with asking permission first:

Spot on.

All this nonsense about democracy and votes is pathetic really.

Tata and the CBI speak mano a mano to Vince and the waters magically part.

Cameron/Osborne are just the same as Baron Mandelschild/Brown. F*cking over the people who elect them to pour money into the corporatist pocket. The very people causing the problem in the first place.

Yes We Can BUT globalists won't let us.........:angry:

"In 2009. over half of all intra-company transfer visas issued went to Indian IT workers - 10,000 to just three companies.

"They are clearly undercutting tens of thousands of unemployed UK IT workers while computer science graduates suffer the highest unemployment of any discipline, currently 16%."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spot on.

All this nonsense about democracy and votes is pathetic really.

Tata and the CBI speak mano a mano to Vince and the waters magically part.

Cameron/Osborne are just the same as Baron Mandelschild/Brown. F*cking over the people who elect them to pour money into the corporatist pocket. The very people causing the problem in the first place.

Yes We Can BUT globalists won't let us.........:angry:

Great post, I think its time we take our country back!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great post, I think its time we take our country back!

I agree, and maybe we should take a leaf out of the tea party's book. There is no way a new political party will ever break in to the system, the only way is join existing parties and revolt from within. I'm sure there are sufficient numbers of disgruntled existing members of parties who would welcome the arrival of new members who would stand against existing "liberal globalist/elitist" MPs etc. Becoming members of local party associations is the only way to change this corrupt system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Want to know the reason why:

http://www.techeye.net/business/uk-big-business-exploits-visa-loophole-to-decimate-it-jobs

Leave it to an American site to actually give us the nuts and bolts of this tax scam, yet all the British media are strangely silent.

:angry:

It can be substantially cheaper and more flexible for businesses to rely on on-shore resources rather than hiring permanent staff or using contractors. Approximately, the price of off-shoring from an Indian IT service company is cheapest at £120 a day. An onshore Indian IT worker at a client base will cost £300 a day. Compare that to an internal charge rate for a permanent client UK IT worker at £400 a day, covering pension and holiday pay as well as salary. Now compare that to a UK contractor at £500 a day including an agency cut and a UK consultant from an IT service company at £800 a day and the maths are fairly clear.

An Indian IT worker could potentially cost under £50 a day to their employer while being charged to the client at £120 a day. Tempting figures.

It begs some questions, and they mostly can be directed to the UK's intra company transfer visa.

The intra company visa does not require a job to be in an area with recognised work shortfalls and it does not need to be advertised to show that the work could be done by UK staff. The few restrictions in place are simple and at surface value they look reasonable. A foreign employee must have been working at a related organisation for at least a year, though it was at six months before April. There is a points based system in place. They must pass the threshold and be paid at least the going or appropriate rate for the job.

Typically the salary clocks in at £24,000. Adding up visa costs, flights, accommodation and salary should if anything make using an intra company transfer rack up the expenses tally. It doesn't look profitable. Until you realise expenses and tax free allowances can be counted towards the "salary". As a source tells TechEye: "This is complete madness."

IT service companies with the resources can negotiatie with HM Revenue & Customs blanket tax free payments and allowances which cover legitimate business expenses that employees incur having worked at a client site for the first two years. Because these are not salary payments, the HRMC considers them tax free and it means every employee doesn't have the burden of sending in receipts which must then be counted and tallied. The tax free allowance dispensation can be between roughly £1,000 and £1,500 each month.

So if these consultants are on-shore Indian IT workers, they can be sent to client sites. They can be paid a minimum wage salary and grab a tax free allowance of up to £18,000. As a friend of TechEye puts it: "The UK Borders Agency rules are passed, their Indian IT workers are happy, and they can significantly undercut UK workers, void UK income tax and national insurance, both employer and employee."

Indian IT workers on an intra company transfer visa pay very little tax and national insurance. By comparison a UK worker would pay a lot - the system is cutting its nose off to spite its face. Employers using temporary foreign workers gain a strong competitive advantage over local workers. This was noted by the Migration Advisor Committee in a report last August. It stressed the loophole leaves the system, and the UK, wide open to abuse.

The UK Border Agency recognised that allowances could be used to undercut UK workers, but in its statement at the end of March 2010 it decided not to take any action. See page 8, paragraphs 41 onwards, here.

Read more: http://www.techeye.net/business/uk-big-business-exploits-visa-loophole-to-decimate-it-jobs#ixzz14JOFQynw

Raised exactly this point on here a number of times before.

Payments to foreign employees of Accommodation, Travel and Subsistence expenses are free of UK PAYE/NIC and deductible from the employers Corporation Tax for a period of 24 months in the UK. The overseas workers wage is remitted to his home country and he or she pays the tax on the earnings there. In the rest of Europe the period is restricted from 6-12 months. This now has relatively little to do with the wage arbitrage which has been shrinking for some time now and everything to do with playing the UK tax system. If UK workers could claim tax relief on their Housing, Travel and other susbsistence costs then they too would be able to rub along on much lower pay. Of course, the end game is that all workers are brought in from overseas, no one pays Tax or NIC and the UK government goes bust in a spectacular fashion.

Edited by realcrookswearsuits

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to work for one of the big Indian IT outsource companies. Now let me tell you a little story....

The article above regarding the tax system is spot on. Every person brought over from India to the UK filled in a tax form that stated that they would be here two years or less - that entitles them to pay no NI for two years. During my tenure there were loads of Indian transferee's who had been in the UK longer than two years. They started paying NI after two years but it was policy to avoid stating that you would be there for more even if you knew that would be the case.

The dispensation scheme on expenses meant that salaries were very low but topped up with tax free payments for accommodation, travel and subsistence.

The net result was that the company drastically lowered the cost of employment relative to the local market. The main concern was ensuring that the salaries did not go below national minimum wage!

A funny side effect of all this was that after two years many Indian transferees want to return home due to the increase in taxes due to NI!

BTW, access to schools and healthcare etc is exactly the same as the rest of the population from the moment they arrive.

The company also brought over staff to admin work, finance roles and HR - and in fact did this across Europe. Part of the reason was to retain an Indian culture at each regional office - despite very few of these transferees having any local language skills. As far as I am aware there no justifiable reason to grant entry to admin or back office staff, but there you go.

As the company grew (very rapidly) the management was obsessed with moving the work offshore including back office operations even though it didn’t work (due to language and cultural differences). The view was that taking on a local hire would only happen as last resort and was seen as failure!

In addition, immigration rules across the continent were bent and broken with alarming regularity, for example, sending people on tourist visas to do work for global clients. every conceivable ex-pat tax wheeze was investigated and tried against a culture of seeing such things as immigration rules and tax legislation as obstacles that could be overcome with the right "entrepreneurial spirit"! It even went to the extent of getting work permits in one SCHENGEN visa country and sending the holders to work in a completely different one (even though the payroll was resident in the country that granted the visa!).

Other tricks such billing the work done for customers using overseas companies avoided local taxes in some cases.

The ethos was very much "nothing must stand in the way of growth" and European and UK rules were seen as tiresome and avoidable. Some of the companies that are now government owned have massively increased the staff they use from these companies during the financial crisis - in fact the growth and value of these organizations has flourished since 08.

I could go on but it makes me angry to think that nothing will be done about this.

Oh and by the way HMRC have investigated some of the above so it’s not as if they don’t know....

Edited by BlackSwan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Raised exactly this point on here a number of times before.

Payments to foreign employees of Accommodation, Travel and Subsistence expenses are free of UK PAYE/NIC and deductible from the employers Corporation Tax for a period of 24 months in the UK. The overseas workers wage is remitted to his home country and he or she pays the tax on the earnings there. In the rest of Europe the period is restricted from 6-12 months. This now has relatively little to do with the eage arbitrage which has been shrinking for some time now and everything to do with playing the UK tax system/ If UK workers could claim tax relief on their Housing, Travel and other susbsistence costs then they too would be able to rub along on much lower pay. Of course, the end game is that all workers are brought in from overseas, no one pays Tax or NIC and the UK government goes bust in a spectacular fashion.

Yes my thoughts exactly, the amazing thing is no one in Government seems to care, this is bad all round for UK citizens but there's zero comprehension in Government circles of the danger they are putting the country in

Edited by madpenguin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Raised exactly this point on here a number of times before.

Payments to foreign employees of Accommodation, Travel and Subsistence expenses are free of UK PAYE/NIC and deductible from the employers Corporation Tax for a period of 24 months in the UK. The overseas workers wage is remitted to his home country and he or she pays the tax on the earnings there. In the rest of Europe the period is restricted from 6-12 months. This now has relatively little to do with the wage arbitrage which has been shrinking for some time now and everything to do with playing the UK tax system/ If UK workers could claim tax relief on their Housing, Travel and other susbsistence costs then they too would be able to rub along on much lower pay. Of course, the end game is that all workers are brought in from overseas, no one pays Tax or NIC and the UK government goes bust in a spectacular fashion.

But what makes you think the elite cares about the state, they are internationalist in scope now, the game has changed since the 19th century, If you want a global state you have to let the old system wither and die.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The sooner UK house prices are allowed to completely collapse the better. It will allow UK workers to become competitive.

At the moment the Great Renegers (UK politicians) are destroying UK peoples lives both ways. By giving away their jobs all around the world and by making buying accomodation out of reach. It's getting "take one job get one free". Stack 'em high sell 'em cheap.

All that talk years ago about the relaxation of employment safeguards etc to allow UK workers to compete hasn't helped UK workers at all and just because housing has become so expensive. House prices must be allowed to collapse.

Edited by billybong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The news was also saying that if they weren't allowed to give their UK jobs away to the rest of the world then companies like Honda threatened they "would up sticks and leave". Maybe they've served their purpose if they're just going to be giving UK jobs away to the rest of the world.

Maybe they shouldn't just blackmail and threaten maybe they should just go on and naff off. They would probably be better off in the eu main land zone at any rate and the UK wouldn't have to suffer their threats. Eventually they'll leave for sure after hollowing out the UK.

Apparently this is all a "victory" for Vince.

V for Victory V for Vince.

Edited by billybong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think its fine to have these guys come in they just need to be charged 1000 - 2000 quid a month for the visa, then they are paying their way and if they can do the same job for that much less I don't see what harm they do and the employers have all the flexibility they need, if the work they do is worth less than this then they should not be coming in ...

I don't know why this issue is so much of an issue just charge the right price for the visa and let the market sort itself out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes my thoughts exactly, the amazing thing is no one in Government seems to care, this is bad all round for UK citizens but there's zero comprehension in Government circles of the danger they are putting the country in

They don't have to care.

The people they lunch with are the ones who benefit. The voters cannot say they'll vote for someone else if all parties have the same policy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think its fine to have these guys come in they just need to be charged 1000 - 2000 quid a month for the visa, then they are paying their way and if they can do the same job for that much less I don't see what harm they do and the employers have all the flexibility they need, if the work they do is worth less than this then they should not be coming in ...

I don't know why this issue is so much of an issue just charge the right price for the visa and let the market sort itself out

And how much are the workers and/or their employers charged currently?

From the Border Agency website, the highest fee for a visa application I can find is £690.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 145 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.