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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8108954/Middle-class-pay-six-times-more-for-degrees.html

Graduates who go on to earn more than £45,000 will pay six times as much a year for the cost of university than those who are less successful, government figures showed.

The middle classes on moderate incomes will be hardest hit by the most radical shake-up of university funding for a generation, ministers admitted.

Overall, three out of four university leavers will be worse off than at present following the move to allow institutions to charge up to £9,000 a year for courses.

Successful graduates will be penalised most by the introduction of variable interest rates on the loans they take out to pay the fees. A university leaver with debts of £30,000 and an annual salary of £45,000 will have to pay back about £2,160 a year for about 30 years. Someone earning £25,000 will have to pay £360 a year for the same debts because a lower interest rate will be applied.

"Middle earning graduates will pay a lot more for their degrees over their lifetimes, and that will worry people," said Ian Mulheirn of the Social Market Foundation think tank. "They will face significant debt for the first time."

Significant debt for a house or significant debt for a degree. Long term it would appear house prices can only correct.

Perpetual debt for all.

Although it does appear that the system is going to subsidise the lower paid.

So the person on £45k pays £64800 over the lifetime of the loan, meanwhile the person on £25k pays £10800 back.

Someone's sums here don't appear to be adding up for every £25k earner your going to need a £45k earner to make up the shortfall surely?

This doesn't appear sustainable.

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"Middle earning graduates will pay a lot more for their degrees over their lifetimes, and that will worry people," said Ian Mulheirn of the Social Market Foundation think tank. "They will face significant debt for the first time."

Well, we are all supposed to be in it together.

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Significant debt for a house or significant debt for a degree. Long term it would appear house prices can only correct.

Perpetual debt for all.

Although it does appear that the system is going to subsidise the lower paid.

So the person on £45k pays £64800 over the lifetime of the loan, meanwhile the person on £25k pays £10800 back.

Someone's sums here don't appear to be adding up for every £25k earner your going to need a £45k earner to make up the shortfall surely?

This doesn't appear sustainable.

Hmmm.. so just how is this different from a graduate tax? Apart from being more effort to administer, obviously, and allowing the financial sector to make a decent slice on the side.

(Of course, the genuinely well-off will pay all their fees up-front, thereby avoiding interest completely.)

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course, the announcements were made and the justifications pronounced...it was all about fairness to students,

NOTHING was said about Bloated payments in Salaries to University lecturers, Administrators and managers.

50% off all salaries Above 25K would be a start.

shutting down the Unis, that are prepared to "educate" 50% of our youngsters, so that like QE, the degrees become mainly useless, so that maybe 5% go to Uni, would be a big help.

knowledge economy?...yeah...look where the knowledge is funnelled...into criminal banking areas...the best brains are used to defend stealing.

They should be going to create wealth.

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Hmmm.. so just how is this different from a graduate tax? Apart from being more effort to administer, obviously, and allowing the financial sector to make a decent slice on the side.

(Of course, the genuinely well-off will pay all their fees up-front, thereby avoiding interest completely.)

They are Tories it couldn't be called a tax, but a variable interest rate is clearly a more easy sell.

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They are Tories it couldn't be called a tax, but a variable interest rate is clearly a more easy sell.

And its a misdirection away from the problem...the need for spending cuts.

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And its a misdirection away from the problem...the need for spending cuts.

Yep.

The Universities on the face of it appear to have got what they wanted but it's looking like ultimately increasing fees won't help them.

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Yep.

The Universities on the face of it appear to have got what they wanted but it's looking like ultimately increasing fees won't help them.

Of course, if people are all spent out, increasing the demand for cash from the same people will have an obvious effect....they WONT go.

the problem of salaries and expansion spending remains.

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course, the announcements were made and the justifications pronounced...it was all about fairness to students,

NOTHING was said about Bloated payments in Salaries to University lecturers, Administrators and managers.

It's the same problem that's been seen in the private and government sectors as well, to be fair - wages and bonuses at the very top have spiraled into the stratosphere; I suspect that your average uni lecturer is not exactly raking it in considering the training requirements (think a minimum of 6 years training and a similar amount of time in low-paid postdoc on short contracts)

As in local government, there is a strong case that pay scales should apply all the way to the top, to stop individuals taking advantage.

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It's the same problem that's been seen in the private and government sectors as well, to be fair - wages and bonuses at the very top have spiraled into the stratosphere; I suspect that your average uni lecturer is not exactly raking it in considering the training requirements (think a minimum of 6 years training and a similar amount of time in low-paid postdoc on short contracts)

As in local government, there is a strong case that pay scales should apply all the way to the top, to stop individuals taking advantage.

sorry, but the 6 years training was their choice.

they are NOT entitled to a top salary.

same way as current graduates are not entitled...although they are told they are the best of the best....my daughter certainly was...every award, every event, they are told they are the future....

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NOTHING was said about Bloated payments in Salaries to University lecturers, Administrators and managers.

50% off all salaries Above 25K would be a start.

Just how bloated do you think these salaries are?

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This is just another attempt to shift as much of the debt problem onto the next generation. It's the ones that are just under 18 now that will suffer, what a coincidence they they can't vote.

I think the system is simply broken. The £50K minimum of debt to go for a 4 year course will simply price out Universities.

An 18 year old looking at £50K debt for a good degree then needing another £50K for a house deposit , then paying off a £120K mortgage then needing a £400K retirement fund is going to say this is impossible and leave the system.

It gets worse when you look at the interest involved, the interest on the student debt and the mortgage and the fact that whilst saving for a deposit, your savings are being eaten away by inflation and you are paying rent to a landlord. The sums just don't add up.

Open university from is one possibility to reduce costs but leaving the bills behind you to work abroad is probably better. I left the UK at age 24 to work abroad, stayed away for 4 years. If I had a £50K debt to return to, I would not have come back, £50K was my house deposit at the time.

I have two young kids, I would advise either OU or leave.

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Just how bloated do you think these salaries are?

I read that many are on 50K and more.

Perhaps, as you suggest, some facts would be helpful.

I attach no particular creedance to this web site following a google:

http://www.mysalary....y_Lecturer_3229

EDIT..here is another with recommended pay scales....note the high rates to "manager" grades.

this will come with the Oak panelled office, car, long leave, and many other "social" perks, attendances, jollies et al.

http://www.ucu.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=2218

Edited by Bloo Loo

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The worst thing by far, imo, is that the wealthiest have been protected again. Those that can pay their fees up front will face no other repayments in the future irrespective of their earnings or inflation.

As usual the rich stay rich and middle england is squeezed.

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The worst thing by far, imo, is that the wealthiest have been protected again. Those that can pay their fees up front will face no other repayments in the future irrespective of their earnings or inflation.

As usual the rich stay rich and middle england is squeezed.

well, yah, those with money clearly dont need to borrow it.. That IS the point of being rich.

Its sad that Public servant management are fast becoming the new rich.

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If everytime you have to pay more for something than someone who is paid less....then what is the point of money? What is the point of price? They become increasingly redundant.

everyone should receive the same.

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everyone should receive the same.

... educational opportunity, healthcare, access to basic housing, freedom from starving to death on the street, etc ...

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... educational opportunity, healthcare, access to basic housing, freedom from starving to death on the street, etc ...

well, there are a couple of ways of doing this....everyone earns the same...its up to them WHAT they do with their money.

some will become tramps...others will become nobel prizewinners.

the tramps will complain its all unfair.

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So, does this mean those that did useful vocational degrees will be subsidising those who did useless, indulgent degrees.

The next generation of engineers will be paying for the next generation of media studies, call centre operatives! Brilliant!

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Thought I heard on the radio last night that there would be penalties for early repayment, just like on some mortgages.

Surely not I thought, I must have mis-heard that. But if it is intended as a graduate tax in disguised form that would make

perfect sense.

And what a completely ridiculous and arbitrary tax that would be.

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So, does this mean those that did useful vocational degrees will be subsidising those who did useless, indulgent degrees.

The next generation of engineers will be paying for the next generation of media studies, call centre operatives! Brilliant!

More likely those who have highly paid jobs following media studies degrees will subsidise engineers working in call centres :)

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Thought I heard on the radio last night that there would be penalties for early repayment, just like on some mortgages.

Surely not I thought, I must have mis-heard that. But if it is intended as a graduate tax in disguised form that would make

perfect sense.

And what a completely ridiculous and arbitrary tax that would be.

I heard that too. I also heard a half fact that the interest rate would rise by a percentage PLUS inflation every year....WTF does THAT actually mean?

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I have no wish to defend what looks like a ghastly system with a complexity and unfairness worthy of NuLab.

However ...

This is clearly a horrible fudge to try and spin around irreconcilable and unworkable political pledges. I'm sure they're leaving themselves scope to adjust it - hopefully to something less insane - when the political heat has moved on.

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