Why The Premier League Has Been Doomed By The Speculators

[newbonic]

There's an article in the Sunday Times sports section today that tells me much of what is wrong with British football. It compares the way Bayern Munich is run with Manchester United. E.g:

• Bayern make £50m per year profit - Man U lost £86m last year
• Bayern's only debt is £170m for their new stadium (will be paid for by 2016) - Man U owe >£700m
• Bayern is 82% owned by fans - Man U is owned by whoever owns the debt (
• The Prem hold over 50% of all European football debt.

You'll probably have guessed the answer, but which club boss said -

"We could charge more than £104 [for a season ticket]. Let's say we charge £300 - we'd make £2m more in income, but what's £2m to us? But the difference between £104 and £300 is huge for the fan. We do not think the fans are like cows who you milk. Football has got to be for everybody?"(1)

Or

"I would never get permission from our fans to sell the club to a Russian billionaire, the billionaire comes and goes but the fans always stay."(2)

Or

"We spend only what we earn."(3)

It's like an allegory of the British short term debt fuelled approach vs the German debt averse long term planning.

1. Bayern President Hoeness. Bayern peg 12,500 season tickets at £104 - At Man U it's at least £475.

2. Hoeness again.

3. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, CEO

edit for typo

[SHERWICK]

"We spend only what we earn."(3)

Them crazy foreigners!! Oh, how we laugh at them!

[newbonic]

Them crazy foreigners!! Oh, how we laugh at them!

Stupid Germans don't realise that debt = wealth and that fans are there to be milked dry. They'll never do as well as us.

(I notice my thread's been hurled into the sulphurous pits of off topic!)

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

debt is £170m for their new stadium

"We spend only what we earn."(3)

[Mark Uttley]

(I notice my thread's been hurled into the sulphurous pits of off topic!)

How very dare you!

[newbonic]

I presume the great Karl-Heinz meant that they only spend what they can afford, rather than the Prem approach which seems to be 'wing it,spend what we can beg/borrow/milk from the fans/etc. and hope for the best'.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

I presume the great Karl-Heinz meant that they only spend what they can afford, rather than the Prem approach which seems to be 'wing it,spend what we can beg/borrow/milk from the fans/etc. and hope for the best'.

If you can borrow it, you can afford it. Man United is not in danger of going away, even if the Glazers do. It sounds like there's no competition for players in Germany; I suspect there's also little history of nutter proprietors coming in and shovelling money in, distorting the market.

Also, how much are German football telly rights sold for around the world? Not half as much as Premiership, I imagine.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

If you can borrow it, you can afford it. Man UnitedHigh house prices are not in danger of going away, even if the Glazersthe over-borrowed do. It sounds like there's no competition for playershouses in Germany; I suspect there's also little history of nutter proprietorsborrowers coming in and shovelling money in, distorting the market.

Its different this time

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

Its different this time

Sure, but if you're in the business of being a top football team, you don't have the option not to buy top players.

I don't have to buy a house...

[profitofdoom]

German football has faded from the top flight of Europe.The best German players now go to Spain or Italy for the most part.And the reason for this is excatly what has been highlighted,it's those countries that pay top wages that build the best teams.

But does it matter? I would argue that it doesn't. I have to pay £25 for a ticket to watch Norwich in the Championship. £104 for a season ticket to watch Bayern Munich looks like a cracking deal to me.I would forgo watching the Prima Donnas in the Champions League.

[ccc]

German football has faded from the top flight of Europe.The best German players now go to Spain or Italy for the most part.And the reason for this is excatly what has been highlighted,it's those countries that pay top wages that build the best teams.

But does it matter? I would argue that it doesn't. I have to pay £25 for a ticket to watch Norwich in the Championship. £104 for a season ticket to watch Bayern Munich looks like a cracking deal to me.I would forgo watching the Prima Donnas in the Champions League.

Most recent German squad.

21 players.

18 play in Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_national_football_team#Current_squad

I have been to a number of German games recently. It is quite simply brilliant and pisses on other countries.

Brilliant stadiums. Brilliant Beer. Brilliant terracing. Brilliant seating. Brilliant atmosphere. Brilliant pricing. Brilliant organisation. Brilliant league with numerous teams who can win. Brilliant attendences.

Add to this a fantastic set up. Fantastic facilities. And fantastic players.

They actually listen to their fans which is an enormous part of it. In 5-10 years the EPL will be a shadow of the Bundesliga. The writing is on the wall and is as clear as crystal IMO.

[newbonic]

...... Brilliant attendences.

Add to this a fantastic set up. Fantastic facilities. And fantastic players.

They actually listen to their fans which is an enormous part of it. In 5-10 years the EPL will be a shadow of the Bundesliga. The writing is on the wall and is as clear as crystal IMO.

Their average attendances are the highest in Europe at 41,802 (the Prem is 34,151). And Bayern can already compete head to head with the likes of the 'big 4' for players wages and transfer fees - all that while turning a big profit. Once they've paid for their new stadium they will be an even bigger force than they already are.

[OnionTerror]

It's not just the Premier League though. It's a lot of clubs throughout the football league & it's now starting to proliferate into the non-league game. Apparently Crawley (in the Conference) have a £1m to spend...where the hell did they get that money from? There's rumours that they're after Robert Pires!!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1322505/Robert-Pires-wanted-Crawley.html

Utter, utter madness. During the close season, they spent over quarter of a million on a striker from York - a non-league record. It will end in tears... Hornchurch went bust, as did Chester City, Scarborough...The list goes on...

My club in League One charge £22 for a game...I haven't gone in two years...I'm not willing to spend that every week any more. The cheeky buggers charge 45p for a debit card transaction...No where else have I go charges to use it...Football is at breaking point...

[athe]

It's not just the Premier League though. It's a lot of clubs throughout the football league & it's now starting to proliferate into the non-league game. Apparently Crawley (in the Conference) have a £1m to spend...where the hell did they get that money from? There's rumours that they're after Robert Pires!!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1322505/Robert-Pires-wanted-Crawley.html

Utter, utter madness. During the close season, they spent over quarter of a million on a striker from York - a non-league record. It will end in tears... Hornchurch went bust, as did Chester City, Scarborough...The list goes on...

My club in League One charge £22 for a game...I haven't gone in two years...I'm not willing to spend that every week any more. The cheeky buggers charge 45p for a debit card transaction...No where else have I go charges to use it...Football is at breaking point...

Presumably there is a consumer spending equivalent of the Laffer curve - football clubs have to been getting close to the point (if they haven't already passed it) where they would make more by charging less.

[MrPin]

Football is deflating!

[Mark Uttley]

And Bayern can already compete head to head with the likes of the 'big 4' for players wages and transfer fees -

Really?

When Wayne Rooney was said to be leaving Man Utd a few weeks ago I don't remember him being linked with any German clubs.

The German's may have better attendances than English clubs, but they can't match them for TV revenue.

[profitofdoom]

Really?

When Wayne Rooney was said to be leaving Man Utd a few weeks ago I don't remember him being linked with any German clubs.

The German's may have better attendances than English clubs, but they can't match them for TV revenue.

+1 And that's the problem withour game.His Murdochness.

[OnionTerror]

You also look at previous winners of the various european cups - it's dominated by british, spanish & italian winners. It is dotted with the odd german side here & there, but it's only Bayern that have done anything of any real note.

[ianb78]

I think England should adopt the German model. Cheaper ticket prices, terracing, more fan input in club affairs - it all bodes well.

I'm sick of the money obsessed Premiersh*t with its overpaid prima donas.

Football has become farcical in this country. There's less competition - you can virtually predict who will finish where. Atmospheres have disappeared in stadia due to lack of terracing and tickets are ridiculously overpriced.

I say bring in wage caps, put top flight football back on terrestrial TV and maybe introduce a draft system like American football to spread the players between the clubs.

Football success must revert back to good coaching and tactical methods as opposed to who has the most money.

I support a Championship club and much prefer football at that level than the corporate monstrosity that is the Premiersh!t.

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

Although it's a shame that football is so big that it makes all other sports seem insignificant at times, it's a great sport that's given people a lot of entertainment.

I would just love to see the premiership implode. Twats like Rooney and the Man City mercenaries make me sick. The idea that the Premiership is the 'best in the world' is a laugh. Sure the big money foreign-player stuffed teams can compete at Europe's top table, even if they spend most of their time spit roasting hookers. But Sunderland vs Napoli? Wigan vs. Werder Bremen? Stoke vs. Espanyol? You'd always fancy the foreign teams because they don't play 'exciting premier league football' AKA hoofball.

[OnionTerror]

I think England should adopt the German model. Cheaper ticket prices, terracing, more fan input in club affairs - it all bodes well.

I'm sick of the money obsessed Premiersh*t with its overpaid prima donas.

Football has become farcical in this country. There's less competition - you can virtually predict who will finish where. Atmospheres have disappeared in stadia due to lack of terracing and tickets are ridiculously overpriced.

I say bring in wage caps, put top flight football back on terrestrial TV and maybe introduce a draft system like American football to spread the players between the clubs.

Football success must revert back to good coaching and tactical methods as opposed to who has the most money.

I support a Championship club and much prefer football at that level than the corporate monstrosity that is the Premiersh!t.

It'll never happen...Too much money is "invested" (sometimes by the owners / sometimes borrowed) in clubs. The only way it'll happen is if a few of the premiershite sides go bankrupt & have to start again by the fans a la Chester FC or AFC Wimbledon. These so called big sides will be propped up by loans on loans - they almost aren't allowed to fail. I can't see these "owners" giving the club to a fans group for the good of the community....

I've said it time & again, La Liga is the best league in the world (some on here have disagreed with this), where the majority of the players are spanish and I'd rather watch Real Sociedad - Getafe than bloody Stoke - Bolton.

[profitofdoom]

I think England should adopt the German model. Cheaper ticket prices, terracing, more fan input in club affairs - it all bodes well.

I'm sick of the money obsessed Premiersh*t with its overpaid prima donas.

Football has become farcical in this country. There's less competition - you can virtually predict who will finish where. Atmospheres have disappeared in stadia due to lack of terracing and tickets are ridiculously overpriced.

I say bring in wage caps, put top flight football back on terrestrial TV and maybe introduce a draft system like American football to spread the players between the clubs.

Football success must revert back to good coaching and tactical methods as opposed to who has the most money.

I support a Championship club and much prefer football at that level than the corporate monstrosity that is the Premiersh!t.

I find myself hoping that my club don't get promotion to the Premiership.The ideal would be to lose the play off final (To anyone but Ipswich) The Premiership just brings inflated prices and weekly thrashings by the so called superstars. I much preferred standing on the terraces for £2 .

[ccc]

Really?

When Wayne Rooney was said to be leaving Man Utd a few weeks ago I don't remember him being linked with any German clubs.

The German's may have better attendances than English clubs, but they can't match them for TV revenue.

+1 And that's the problem withour game.His Murdochness.

#1 The rumours about Rooney were rumours. They were made up on papers thoughts on where he may go. Oh and they didn't actually happen....

#2 I do agree however that he would probably not go to a German club. I don't think a German club would be as stupid to pay those wages for a player who I feel would struggle in a technically better league. Especially when they can get similar standard players (IMO) for less, or just get new and upcoming German talent.

PS - Agree La Liga is great quality too. However for how the combined football structure is concerned - I don't think you can beat Germany. Although I have not been to Spanish games so maybe I will have to do some investigations.

[jackalope]

Brilliant stadiums. Brilliant Beer. Brilliant terracing. Brilliant seating. Brilliant atmosphere. Brilliant pricing. Brilliant organisation. Brilliant league with numerous teams who can win. Brilliant attendences.

But they're rubbish compared to Italian, Spanish and English teams. They've only won 2 ECL finals and the Dortmund victory against Juve in 97 was a massive fluke requiring Zidane to have the worst game of his life and Paul Lambert(!) to have the best.

[jackalope]

+1 And that's the problem withour game.His Murdochness.

Domestic Bundeslige games (apart from the season opener) are on Sky Deutschland subscriber only.