China Can't Do Innovation?

[Boom Boom]

http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/26596/?p1=A4

Oh dear. A few years and the 'national processor' will be on a par with whatever Intel and AMD have to offer. Won't be long before both companies start moving R&D to China, leaving a bunch of people once considered immune from outsourcing with a skill base that is rapidly devaluing.

[ken_ichikawa]

http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/26596/?p1=A4

Oh dear. A few years and the 'national processor' will be on a par with whatever Intel and AMD have to offer. Won't be long before both companies start moving R&D to China, leaving a bunch of people once considered immune from outsourcing with a skill base that is rapidly devaluing.

The problem with china isn't innovation it is reputation. Honda and Hyundai took years to shake their bad reputation for shoddily made stuff. Once they start getting a good rep then the fun begins.

As I've bloged on it many times China is a nation led by engineers (and thieves) while the UK and western nations are led merely by thieves on a short leash from their accountants.

Edited October 24, 2010 by ken_ichikawa

[Freeholder]

I remember a lot of fuss and panic in the press when the japanese built the first 64K RAM chip back in the eighties. The japs we were told were going to own the industry and the world. Subsequent events prove that predicting the future usually doesnt work.

[ken_ichikawa]

I remember a lot of fuss and panic in the press when the japanese built the first 64K RAM chip back in the eighties. The japs we were told were going to own the industry and the world. Subsequent events prove that predicting the future usually doesnt work.

Oh I dunno Japan seems to be a world leader in consumer electronics, cars, motorbikes and robotics. IIRC there are at least 10 major ship builders in Japan too. Similar story with Korea.

Can the UK lay a claim to any one of those titles? Triumph doesn't count as most Triumph motorcycles are made from parts made in Malaysia, China and Japan. Maybe motorsport technology...

[Boom Boom]

I remember a lot of fuss and panic in the press when the japanese built the first 64K RAM chip back in the eighties. The japs we were told were going to own the industry and the world. Subsequent events prove that predicting the future usually doesnt work.

Huh, you been under a rock for the last few decades? Japan dominates much of the consumer electronics industry with a population of around 130 million people, and with a significant percentage of the elderly. China is a nation of some 1.3 BILLION people, with a much younger population on average.

[bogbrush]

They most certainly can innovate. They are humans after all.

All this stuff about the West being able to dominate a knowledge economy was always total bull put forward by people who didn't know what they were talking about.

[Boom Boom]

They most certainly can innovate. They are humans after all.

All this stuff about the West being able to dominate a knowledge economy was always total bull put forward by people who didn't know what they were talking about.

We can't do manufacturing because British citizens can't live on £200 a month.

[Redcellar]

They most certainly can innovate. They are humans after all.

All this stuff about the West being able to dominate a knowledge economy was always total bull put forward by people who didn't know what they were talking about.

+1

They have always been innovative throughout time. Paper, gunpowder, printing and the compass to name four.

Check out a list Inventions

Perhaps because they closed their borders we assumed they were backwards and not innovative anymore?

[Freeholder]

Huh, you been under a rock for the last few decades? Japan dominates much of the consumer electronics industry with a population of around 130 million people, and with a significant percentage of the elderly. China is a nation of some 1.3 BILLION people, with a much younger population on average.

Peeking out from under my rock to review my original post I note that I was referring to one industry, not the ones to which you refer. The Japanese did not go on to own the microchip industry. Come to think of it I am typing this on a chinese keyboard viewing it on a Korean monitor and am connected to the internet via an american computer so they dont own consumer electronics either. Must stop now my scandanavian mobile phone is ringing, I think I left it somewhere under this rock.

[Boom Boom]

Peeking out from under my rock to review my original post I note that I was referring to one industry, not the ones to which you refer. The Japanese did not go on to own the microchip industry. Come to think of it I am typing this on a chinese keyboard viewing it on a Korean monitor and am connected to the internet via an american computer so they dont own consumer electronics either. Must stop now my scandanavian mobile phone is ringing, I think I left it somewhere under this rock.

You American computer, assembled in China, and with most of the components manufactured there. Your Nokia phone, with most of its components made in China.

[bogbrush]

We can't do manufacturing because British citizens can't live on £200 a month.

Well indeed, for the most part.

[Freeholder]

You American computer, assembled in China, and with most of the components manufactured there. Your Nokia phone, with most of its components made in China.

None of them any the worse or less appreciated for that. I was simply making the point that extravagent predictions of future events have a tendancy to go wrong. Nobody doubts that the chinese can make stuff.

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

And China isn't bound by the EU. We create make-jobs by playing around with the Yanks in Afghanistan and Iraq or endless equality officers. China turns out engineers and fast-tracks its industries with direct funding.

It would be like the UK government giving MG Rover a billion quid to make a car better than a Golf.

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

My experience with working in China is that they can innovate, after all we can so why wouldn't they be able to ?

But there is a culture against it. For example, there is a deep belief that it is easier to copy something than it is to design it from scratch yourself.

Unfortunately if you copy something you do not have the basic understanding to build on knowledge and move forwards. Often it is actually easier to build something from scratch rather than copy it.

Many Chinese developers also prefer quantity over quality. They believe throwing lots of bodies at a problem is the solution. It sometimes is. But the higher in tech you go, the more it becomes about not man hours worked, but quality man hours worked. Only a good engineer can achieve the objective, 100 crap ones can't.

Much is made of the thousands of Chinese engineering graduates coming on stream, but these guys are nowhere near as good as the ones in the west. That doesn't mean that it's going to stay that way forever though.

China doesn't represent a huge threat, so long as it grows its internal demand. Unfortuantely at the moment its people hoard cash because there is no social safety net. Hoarding cash does not an economy make. While China continues to rely almost totally on exports the stress in world trade will continue with the inevitable consequences.

[Freeholder]

It would be like the UK government giving MG Rover a billion quid to make a car better than a Golf.

Last time we tried to do that it did not turn out well.

[MrPin]

Honda and Hyundai took years to shake their bad reputation for shoddily made stuff.

They are not Chinese!

Although I have to admit, everyone East of Lowestoft looks the same to me !

[Errol]

China has a long history of innovation and ground-breaking discovery. Underestimate China at your peril.

[longtomsilver]

They are not Chinese!

Although I have to admit, everyone East of Lowestoft looks the same to me !

I bought a new motorcycle from Honda about 7 years ago (CBR600F) a grey import for about £4.5k expecting it to be Japanese engineering, it wasn't... rode like a nail and to my surprise the country of origin stamped on the VIN was dum dum dum ** China ** never bought Honda again (I'm a Suzuki man now).

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

http://gemssty.com/2006/10/29/top-10-copycat-cars/

The Chinese are copyists for sure but doesn't everyone learn by copying what's gone before?

[Tired of Waiting]

I remember a lot of fuss and panic in the press when the japanese built the first 64K RAM chip back in the eighties. The japs we were told were going to own the industry and the world. Subsequent events prove that predicting the future usually doesnt work.

+ 1

[Olebrum]

Innovation goes alongside the jobs.

[OnlyMe]

Found this link down the chain from the original....

The Chelfing "Spasm"

http://www.chelfing.com/page37.htm

Chelfing Spasm™ Technical Data

0-62 mph (0-100 kph) ----------------- Yes.

Motor ----------------- Babyliss straight-n-shine, 110v with 13 amp fuse.

Range ------------------- 10m as standard, longer extension leads a cost option.

Euro NCAP Test results -------- In the post.

Colour Options ------- -- Scottish Idiot (Brown), Domestic Appliance (White), Yanghzee River(Black), Canine Phallus (Red).

Edited October 24, 2010 by OnlyMe

[MarkG]

Oh dear. A few years and the 'national processor' will be on a par with whatever Intel and AMD have to offer. Won't be long before both companies start moving R&D to China, leaving a bunch of people once considered immune from outsourcing with a skill base that is rapidly devaluing.

The Chinese build a slow MIPS clone and that's 'innovative' and a threat to AMD and Intel?

[Olebrum]

I seem to recall hearing all the same waffle about Japan.

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

http://gemssty.com/2006/10/29/top-10-copycat-cars/

The Chinese are copyists for sure but doesn't everyone learn by copying what's gone before?

Yes and no. There are limits as to how far you can take any practice. Take for example a dll. You could copy a dll easily. You could work out how to call the functions in it. But reverse engineering the functions inside the dll would be next to impossible without the source code. It would be impossible to add any extra functionality and build on the product without writing your own dll.

The same goes for things like firmware (software embedded on microchips). You can suck out the firmware and clone the boad with the microchips on, and make your own board. But you won't be able to build on the firmware because you won't have the source code and decoding the firmware from its raw binary state into source code would be next to impossible.

By leapfrogging these parts of the development process you learn nothing, and you have no ability to capture new market share through product development. You also run the risk at some point that someone will bother to protect their device with some sort of strong encryption which will make the copying much more difficult.