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Faithman

Btl - How To Finish It Off

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When I first considered this scheme it appeared a little bit beyond reason, but the more that I considered it the more I became aware of how realistic a solution it is.

Property is over-valued. There should be no need to reference this fact.

Who is holding up the property values? Answer: RENTERS.

Yes it is the renter and no one else, who is encouraging mass purchases in BTL, which in turn are pricing the FTB out of the market. Unbelievably the people responsible for holding up the value of houses are often those who wish to purchase one.

So what can be done? As has been written many times before, the general population don’t understand housing economics well, However they would not support a drop in prices, per se. Hence, FTB will not be able to take on the general population.

BTL are a much smaller group, however, and little government aid will be directed to specifically help them, if problems arise (although many tax laws are on their side).

So the problem. Many people pay high rents without causing those they are paying any concern and so, are making BTL an attractive investment option.

The solution: Renters need to get together to reduce rents. This is much more feasible than it may sound and needs some thought. (I agree that it would not work for cars or bread as the provision of cars and bread would stop., but in the case of BTL, this is precisely the desired outcome; BTL selling up and renters becoming FTB at lower prices)

The trouble so far is that many have been waiting to higher IR. Well stop waiting and rather reduce rents.

Somebody needs to start a renters union. It will have much public backing (BTL will be the bad guy), it will have more support than the fuel protesters and WOULD WORK.

Personally, I live in my own house so I would not be the ideal front person. I would love to help solve this current social injustice though.

Please share your thoughts.

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So the problem. Many people pay high rents without causing those they are paying any concern and so, are making BTL an attractive investment option.

The solution: Renters need to get together to reduce rents. This is much more feasible than it may sound and needs some thought.... etc...

Please share your thoughts.

abolutely! Get themselves 10+ to a 3 bed semi, get down MFI for a load of bunk beds... hell... in one crowded house I once lived in, someone slept in the bath, and one in the hallway (it was always an aim to get home first and declare your space! :ph34r: )

*pulls up browser to search for bunk bed manufacturer stocks* :lol:

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Not sure that this would immediately be the most popular option, but assuming that current average occupancy of said house is 3 and numbers of BTL currently equal those renting, then we would have, approximately, a 70% void in BTL.

Result : Crash within abut 6 months.

Maybe not so daft after all!!!

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Two years ago my girlfriend and I each owned our own properties, she had a 3 bed house and I had a 2 bed flat.

2 people, 5 bedrooms.

We have subsequently both STR'ed, and moved into a one bed garden flat.

So from 5 beds to 1 bed, we have made 4 bedrooms available to the market.

That has effectively reduced our demand for accommodation by 80%.

2 people, 1 bedroom.

This was done without any motive other than a desire to clear debts and simplify our lives.

We are both saving much of our income, waiting for the time when people in England begin to appreciate the value of money once again.

When the recession really starts to bite, (I suspect by the middle of next year), we will see people drastically reduce their demand for accommodation.

BTL will implode.

The recession will do the job by itself.

Edited by BandWagon

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Bandwagon,

I agree, it will eventually, but many are not sure it will be for some time. The article in Money Week a couple of weeks ago was suggesting 2010.

My point at the moment is that we have an opportunity. To move things faster. BTL is currently under pressure. SIPPS is getting very bad press, both to disuade property investment (Money Week yesterday) and the dislike of helpig the very rich. Now is an excellent time to tip the BTL market over the edge and precipitate the crash.

It all hangs on the perception of whether BTL is a good investment and some bad publicity and instability of the market would be a decider.

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When I first considered this scheme it appeared a little bit beyond reason, but the more that I considered it the more I became aware of how realistic a solution it is.

Property is over-valued. There should be no need to reference this fact.

Who is holding up the property values? Answer: RENTERS.

Yes it is the renter and no one else, who is encouraging mass purchases in BTL, which in turn are pricing the FTB out of the market. Unbelievably the people responsible for holding up the value of houses are often those who wish to purchase one.

So what can be done? As has been written many times before, the general population don’t understand housing economics well, However they would not support a drop in prices, per se. Hence, FTB will not be able to take on the general population.

BTL are a much smaller group, however, and little government aid will be directed to specifically help them, if problems arise (although many tax laws are on their side).

So the problem. Many people pay high rents without causing those they are paying any concern and so, are making BTL an attractive investment option.

The solution: Renters need to get together to reduce rents. This is much more feasible than it may sound and needs some thought.

This theory isn't as silly as it sounds, especially when you consider that HOUSING BENEFIT is keeping rents high. (It enables people with very little money to rent nice privately-owned properties which they would otherwise never be able to afford at current rentals). Housing benefit is a massive form of state subsidy to the BTL sector. I'm amazed that there was been so little discussion of the effects of HB on this forum.

In a sense there already is a renters' union, run by Gordon Brown who decides the rules and upper limits for HB. It seems bonkers to me that the state, as the biggest payer of rent (through HB), and therefore the party with the most to gain through lower rents, is ironically the biggest factor in inflating rentals. Not sure what I would do about it if I was GB - on the one hand there is the laudable desire to help people on low incomes live in decent housing, on the other hand I would want to try to stop HB inflating rents so that less HB needed to be paid.

Any one out here have any ideas on this?

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When I first considered this scheme it appeared a little bit beyond reason, but the more that I considered it the more I became aware of how realistic a solution it is.

Property is over-valued. There should be no need to reference this fact.

Who is holding up the property values? Answer: RENTERS.

Yes it is the renter and no one else, who is encouraging mass purchases in BTL, which in turn are pricing the FTB out of the market.

For BTL'er who have bought in the last couple of years the rent (which is falling is many areas) doesn't cover the mortgage costs, they're just holding on in the hope of capital gains, which will get interesting when the YoY figures turn 0% or negative.

Recent BTL'er aren't getting fat on rents, they never intended to, many are actually subsidising their tenants.

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My thoughts are you are living in a fantasy world.

Many people renting are renting because they cant even get their lives organised enough to purchase property.

Of course a minority will be those who intentionally choose this way because they have the foresight of the coming crash.

But getting this vast number of people to cooperate and disrupt their lives for any length of time is just a silly idea. Many people won't even accept the inconvenience and discomfort of public transport even when petrol prices are going through the roof.

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Interesting point immigrant.

I think as Gordy taxes reduce he may need to redueceHousing Benefit. Also, isn't there a plan to increasingly pay HB to the tenant rather than the landlord so that they can secure better deals. (Or spend it all on booze, in some cases).

Could be a good point to highlight to potential BTL.

Chuz,

Are you for real? 'The easiest way to handle ... is to do nothing' Has that attitude got you where you are today??

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For BTL'er who have bought in the last couple of years the rent (which is falling is many areas) doesn't cover the mortgage costs, they're just holding on in the hope of capital gains, which will get interesting when the YoY figures turn 0% or negative.

Recent BTL'er aren't getting fat on rents, they never intended to, many are actually subsidising their tenants.

Exactly. Quick flick through the local rag that's just popped through the door shows the same story as the last year or so: a flood of rental properties (as no-one can sell) and all available for less than half the cost of a repayment mortgage on the same property. These "landlords" are losing big bucks, but don't have the sense to cut-n-run.

The only other common thread in the local rag is those still keen to sell desperately hacking down their prices. :D

Nomadd

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Chuz,

Are you for real? 'The easiest way to handle ... is to do nothing' Has that attitude got you where you are today??

Pretty much yes, i've got a few life motto's one of which being..

if there is nothing you can do about it dont worry about it, if you can do something about it then do it.

You need to realise that the HPC will sort itself out, and that you can do absolutly b*gger all to change that, so why waste your time trying? Its like me throwing a ball up in the air and you saying its not going to come down so your going to keep jumping up and trying to pull it down.

Put your energy into worthwhile things that you can influence and do it with passion. Do not waste your time and effort trying to change something that will change itself.

You can rant and rave about prices being to high but the beast is to big you try and fight it and it will flatten you without it even knowing what it done, in the grand scheme of things you are pathetic and unimportant (i know your mummy tells you otherwise) but in reality your pretty much a nothing.

EDITED:

Just one other thing, its a free market, that might not mean alot you too but it is the key to it all. HPC'rs are on the bad end of a free market, but there are millions who are on what they percieve to be the good end.

Free Market... spend 10 minutes with the TV off and sit and think what that means, create some scenarios in your mind about influencing a free market directly and the ramifiction of it.

Things are all to simple for most people, all so black and white, its complex and multiple shades of gray.

Macro / micro economics,causality, sustainability, morality and viability all need to be considerd

Edited by theChuz

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Pretty much yes, i've got a few life motto's one of which being if there is nothing you can do about it dont worry about it, if you can do something about it then do it...

In my experience the largest things you have any chance of influencing is the next level down from a national government. Not sure about the UK but in Australia that would be the state governments. And even then it's VERY difficult and expect to get yourself caught up in all kinds of things. (Been there, tried this). You had better be prepared to put your life on hold for a couple of years to go down this track.

As for the HPC, it's like a train leaving a station. You CAN help push the train along running beside it and you ARE making a tiny contribution to its movement but only if you're pushing in the same direction that it's already moving. You can't move a train this way with the engine turned off and you certainly can't push it the other way against the engine.

Of course, if you get enough people then you can push the train without the engine. But only if they're all pushing the same way and given the situation with VI's in the housing market it's going to be very hard to get everyone pushing the same way on anything that requires mass public involvement.

That's not to say don't give it a try. A few sellers might drop their price because they can't find anyone to pay them rent. But it's unlikely to be on a sufficient scale to actually cause a crash by itself.

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God, Grant me the Serenity

To accept the things I cannot change,

Courage to change the things I can,

and Wisdom to know the difference.

There you go.

Not sure what happens if you don't believe in God (or this particular one)

Edited by BandWagon

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My thoughts are you are living in a fantasy world.

Many people renting are renting because they cant even get their lives organised enough to purchase property.

Of course a minority will be those who intentionally choose this way because they have the foresight of the coming crash.

But getting this vast number of people to cooperate and disrupt their lives for any length of time is just a silly idea. Many people won't even accept the inconvenience and discomfort of public transport even when petrol prices are going through the roof.

At last a sensible voice is heard amongst the crowd...

If you really want to reduce your rent, do what Bandwagon has done. Rent a cheaper property.

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If you really want to reduce your rent, do what Bandwagon has done. Rent a cheaper property.

Why not just rent the same property for less? There are so many unoccupied flats around here that I can't believe any landlord would let a tenant walk rather than knock 10-20% off the rent.

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When I first considered this scheme it appeared a little bit beyond reason, but the more that I considered it the more I became aware of how realistic a solution it is.

Property is over-valued. There should be no need to reference this fact.

Who is holding up the property values? Answer: RENTERS.

Yes it is the renter and no one else, who is encouraging mass purchases in BTL, which in turn are pricing the FTB out of the market. Unbelievably the people responsible for holding up the value of houses are often those who wish to purchase one.

So what can be done? As has been written many times before, the general population don’t understand housing economics well, However they would not support a drop in prices, per se. Hence, FTB will not be able to take on the general population.

BTL are a much smaller group, however, and little government aid will be directed to specifically help them, if problems arise (although many tax laws are on their side).

So the problem. Many people pay high rents without causing those they are paying any concern and so, are making BTL an attractive investment option.

The solution: Renters need to get together to reduce rents. This is much more feasible than it may sound and needs some thought. (I agree that it would not work for cars or bread as the provision of cars and bread would stop., but in the case of BTL, this is precisely the desired outcome; BTL selling up and renters becoming FTB at lower prices)

......so the penny is dropping!!!!!!.

I mentioned in a post several months back about reversion to some form of co-habitation to reduce costs,looks like the idea is catching on,all we need now is for joe public to realise and BTL is fooked(esp 2bed newbuilds!)

...and it does work with cars!,my previous job i was car sharing on a week on-week off basis,as ther was a guy at work living about 2 mins from wher I was staying.

Edited by oracle

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if all the renters took a large dirty sh1t at the same time, them blocked up the loo all at once with additional paper. the btl brigade would have to fund the plumbing repairs as landlords.

keep doing this. everytime saying "ahh, sorry man." or "dont be so churlish - take a look at it"

in the end the BTLr will be pulling his hair out paying for mobile plumbers and start to think that this landord job is not all its cracked up to be.

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if all the renters took a large dirty sh1t at the same time, them blocked up the loo all at once with additional paper. the btl brigade would have to fund the plumbing repairs as landlords.

keep doing this. everytime saying "ahh, sorry man." or "dont be so churlish - take a look at it"

in the end the BTLr will be pulling his hair out paying for mobile plumbers and start to think that this landord job is not all its cracked up to be.

a great idea.

in addition, every renting household should order a tractor load of manure (pig, cow, horse muck of your choice) to be delivered at the start of each week.

each day shovel an enormous quantity down the pan with a few bits of toilet paper in laughable disproportion to muck to ex·ac·er·bate the problem.

this should cause a real stink! (a waste of good muck though)

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when i first vcame to live in blackpool from scotland, i was paying 120 pounds a week, and this to a landlord that let himself in when he felt like it when i was out.

Now i pay only 150 month for a decent enough little flat with no-one else in the building, just a storeroom below.

the landlord dont bother me and i dont bother him, he gets cash in the brown envelope one the first of the month, any repairs i dont ask him i do them myself.

its a very good arrangement and been so for last 4 years.

Im now richer and building up cash im single and like it that way, and people talk and newspapers tell about multiples to buy, well for a single person they multiples are double what is shown.

Im biding my time and im gonna pay cash for a home of my own, wont be the best area but will be free of mortgage and rent when ive bought it, thus i can then build up more cash for the next move up.

More people should think about doing it this way, i may look poor to all my peers in there mortgaged homes but when i do buy i will leap over them in the financial stakes.

Not only that if work gets slow or anything happens there is not bank to worry about.

i suggest others do this and get a chepo place and to hell what your peers think, at the end of it your saving more money for that house you will buy.There are many renting opportunities about if you look for them, and are willing to sacrifice a few of the niceties of a fashionable adress and nice looking house.

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when i first vcame to live in blackpool from scotland, i was paying 120 pounds a week, and this to a landlord that let himself in when he felt like it when i was out.

Now i pay only 150 month for a decent enough little flat with no-one else in the building, just a storeroom below.

the landlord dont bother me and i dont bother him, he gets cash in the brown envelope one the first of the month, any repairs i dont ask him i do them myself.

its a very good arrangement and been so for last 4 years.

Im now richer and building up cash im single and like it that way, and people talk and newspapers tell about multiples to buy, well for a single person they multiples are double what is shown.

Im biding my time and im gonna pay cash for a home of my own, wont be the best area but will be free of mortgage and rent when ive bought it, thus i can then build up more cash for the next move up.

More people should think about doing it this way, i may look poor to all my peers in there mortgaged homes but when i do buy i will leap over them in the financial stakes.

Not only that if work gets slow or anything happens there is not bank to worry about.

i suggest others do this and get a chepo place and to hell what your peers think, at the end of it your saving more money for that house you will buy.There are many renting opportunities about if you look for them, and are willing to sacrifice a few of the niceties of a fashionable adress and nice looking house.

Good for you. I am considering doing the same. A great deal of stress will be absent from your life.

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  • 302 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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