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Merkl Grasps The Nettle--MERGED


hilltop
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Blaming failure of integration on 'Socialism' or 'Islam' is just simplistic.

Neither socialists nor radical islamists want immigrants to integrate; the socialists want the country full of foreigners in ghettos because that way get a new victim group to demand 'rights' for and hence provide more votes, the radical islamists want islamic ghettos because that's where they can grow their influence until they're powerful enough to take over.

And the idea that those who oppose multiculturalism are Nazis is simply laughable; the Nazis _were_ multiculturalists, they wanted Jews and other foreigners living in ghettos rather than integrating with the rest of German society.

Immigrants should either integrate to the best of their ability, or go home; if they believe their culture is better than that of their new home, what are they doing there?

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The word "culture" is a bit all encompassing but surely you understand that it can include honesty, reliability, trust etc. It can be totally removed from race and even religion. The Christian and Sikh religions for example seem to get along fine and there are many examples of "matching" cultures but to assume that all cultures can get along is surely naive.

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She's in for a shock when the Poles, Lithuanians etc flock from the UK and Ireland to Germany in mid-2011, when they will be allowed to work there.

Maybe I'm biased, but most Poles integrate quite well in Western Europe and seem indistinguishable after just one generation. E,g, Polish soldiers that remained in the UK after the WW2.

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It is, but sometimes I get all conspiratorial and think it's deliberately kept like that to ensure no real debate is had on the hard and fast points which we know about certain social norms from people of certain ethnic backgrounds.

I studied culture in different business setting for part of a Masters and I got the feeling it was deliberately kept opaque.

You and a million others, so put on your conspiratorial hat and explore the reasons for obfuscation and who would benefit. Just a variation of follow the money.

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Nationalism on the rise again in Germany (led by it's ruling party) alongside increasing protectionism and currency wars. The bankers and arms manufacturers must be rubbing their hands................

Nationalism is on the rise throughout the EU including the UK but not Nationalism as was seen in Nazi Germany. People are realising albeit slowly that their Governments have sold them down the river as they can`t see why they are not considered first and not allowed to decide their future in this great Soviet Socialist State run by the unelected through a democratic referendum. ;)

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I would say that multiculturalism generally doesn't work in the sense that two groups of people with very different cultural backgrounds don't identify with each other as well as they do with their own, leading to social division.

On the other hand if two or more cultures are slowly exposed to each other and given enough time to blend they eventually become a new culture composed of the sum of their parts.

Example. The US is made up of many types of immigrant, yet now most of those identify themselves as simply "American". Problems arise where two different cultures mix too quickly, such as Latin migration into the US. Although the two cultures are not as dissimilar as some, the sheer quantity of Latinos crossing the boarder in a short period of time has led to cultural divides, tension and areas of poor integration.

The UK has seen similar problems with high volumes of middle eastern and east european immigration over relatively short time periods.

+1

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The UK benefit system would be my answer

Sorry, let me rephrase the question: Why did we let immigrants in who believe their cultures are better than that of their new home and who had no intention of ever integrating?

I'm not looking for the usual right-wingers to answer this, more a left-winger who supported this policy - though I am yet to find one person who did.

:huh:

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Sorry, let me rephrase the question: Why did we let immigrants in who believe their cultures are better than that of their new home and who had no intention of ever integrating?

I'm not looking for the usual right-wingers to answer this, more a left-winger who supported this policy - though I am yet to find one person who did.

:huh:

I'm a bit disappointed that not one person has come out in support of this policy... :huh:

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Maybe I'm biased, but most Poles integrate quite well in Western Europe and seem indistinguishable after just one generation. E,g, Polish soldiers that remained in the UK after the WW2.

Agreed but then Poles have very similar values as the British and therefore are culturally compatible.

On the other hand many of the new entrants to British Society come from cultures where buggering pre pubescent boys is routinely accepted, homosexuality is punishable by death, yet a man and wife holding hands in public is considered obscene :blink:

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:o

:lol:

And be a... ... ... (drums roll) an immigrant !

:lol:

FGS...

:rolleyes:

The point seems to have escaped you (as it often does) that Guitarman said he would learn German. Therefore he would be an immigrant who would integrate. Merkel was talking about those who dont, who instead, form ghettos.

I bet he wouldn't want to build a mosque either.

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The point seems to have escaped you (as it often does) that Guitarman said he would learn German. Therefore he would be an immigrant who would integrate. Merkel was talking about those who dont, who instead, form ghettos.

I bet he wouldn't want to build a mosque either.

The point is that these people seem to positively revel in not integrating - one therefore wonders just why the feck they:

1. Bothered to emigrate to the country in question.

2. Were let in.

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The point is that these people seem to positively revel in not integrating - one therefore wonders just why the feck they:

1. Bothered to emigrate to the country in question.

2. Were let in.

This has already been answered. No other country would give them the handouts they get here. They were let in because they are a dependable voting bloc for a certain political party.

Kind of like how asylum seekers are supposed to seek the nearest safe country, yet aim for the UK, an island on the farflung edge of Eurasia.

Edited by Britney's Piers
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This has already been answered. No other country would give them the handouts they get here. They were let in because they are a dependable voting bloc for a certain political party.

Kind of like how asylum seekers are supposed to seek the nearest safe country, yet aim for the UK, an island on the farflung edge of Eurasia.

Aren't there any left wingers left here who can answer the question? :huh:

Edited by SHERWICK
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Aren't there any left wingers left here who can answer the question? :huh:

My opening post was in part, your answer. Immigration and multiculturism are big issues which no-one in Government really wants to confront. They do not want to confront it because they are part of the middle class, international elite.

They cannot come to terms with the fact that most of the population find it easier to interact with people who share their own values, language and experience.

The London experience is somewhat different, being as it is, a place full of people from elsewhere.

The issue is important; Brown, a Scot who really did not seem to like the English, which is common enough, made the 'bigot' remark which probably helped him lose an election.

Milliband's father came here during WW2 as a refugee from Belgium. Fair enough. He then spent the rest of his life trying to make us a Marxist society. Thanks. Why not just shut up and join in?

Clegg married a Spanish lady he met while working in Brussels. Fair enough again, but far from the background and references of those whose lives he influences. A european perspective must be part of his mental process.

Camoron, by class, education and by name, has no link to the majority of people. Brown's scottishness was held against him, often vitriolically here, why the inconsistancy? A dislike of the Scots (reciprocated) is very common. What hope for people from other backgrounds? (By the way, my OP used the term 'Scotch' which was normal usage for the people, not the drink, until quite recently.)

All of this is to say that it is very hard to achieve multiculturism. It is hard to overcome prejudice, which must be the first step.

We are not making progress towards multiculturism because most people do not want to surrender their own culture and see little they want from others.

But our politicians do not want to hear that - and that is creating a great rift between Government and governed.

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My opening post was in part, your answer. Immigration and multiculturism are big issues which no-one in Government really wants to confront. They do not want to confront it because they are part of the middle class, international elite.

They cannot come to terms with the fact that most of the population find it easier to interact with people who share their own values, language and experience.

The London experience is somewhat different, being as it is, a place full of people from elsewhere.

The issue is important; Brown, a Scot who really did not seem to like the English, which is common enough, made the 'bigot' remark which probably helped him lose an election.

Milliband's father came here during WW2 as a refugee from Belgium. Fair enough. He then spent the rest of his life trying to make us a Marxist society. Thanks. Why not just shut up and join in?

Clegg married a Spanish lady he met while working in Brussels. Fair enough again, but far from the background and references of those whose lives he influences. A european perspective must be part of his mental process.

Camoron, by class, education and by name, has no link to the majority of people. Brown's scottishness was held against him, often vitriolically here, why the inconsistancy? A dislike of the Scots (reciprocated) is very common. What hope for people from other backgrounds? (By the way, my OP used the term 'Scotch' which was normal usage for the people, not the drink, until quite recently.)

All of this is to say that it is very hard to achieve multiculturism. It is hard to overcome prejudice, which must be the first step.

We are not making progress towards multiculturism because most people do not want to surrender their own culture and see little they want from others.

But our politicians do not want to hear that - and that is creating a great rift between Government and governed.

Thanks for taking the time to try and answer hilltop.

However, you didn't address the main two questions - to remind you:

The point is that these people seem to positively revel in not integrating - one therefore wonders just why the feck they:

1. Bothered to emigrate to the country in question.

2. Were let in.

Do you think that people who emigrate to another country should try to integrate into the country they've emigrated to as best they can?

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We are not making progress towards multiculturism because most people do not want to surrender their own culture and see little they want from others.

But, uh, the whole point of 'multiculturalism' is that immigrants live in cultural ghettos rather than 'surrendering their culture' and integrating with the people of the nation they move to.

The fundamental problem is that without a shared culture you don't have a nation, just a collection of competing tribes.

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