Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
Dave Spart

Where's The Note? Demand To See Your Mortgage Note.

Recommended Posts

No. No.

You live in the UK, a country off the coast of Europe.The US is another country with a different legal system and processes. You don't live in the USA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know how it is in the USA, but in the UK the mortgage provider takes away your title deeds and keeps them in their safe. Presumably if someone else 'bought' the mortgage they would need the deeds as well. :unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know how it is in the USA, but in the UK the mortgage provider takes away your title deeds and keeps them in their safe. Presumably if someone else 'bought' the mortgage they would need the deeds as well. :unsure:

They haven't been doing that for years. It's all electronic copies now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lender: BBBBBB CCCCCC Loans Limited (which expression shall include the successors in title and assigns of BBBBBBB CCCCCC Loans Ltd and those deriving title through or under it whether in law or in equity and whether by way of absolute assignment or by way of security only and whether in relation to the whole or to part).

That's the clause defining the lender and taken from a UK mortgage providers Deed of Legal Charge for a mortgage (BBBBBB CCCCCC is not the real name :) but the actual company issues a lot of mortgages). I imagine it's a fairly typical condition in Deeds Of Legal Charge.

It seems to suggest that the original lender isn't necessarily always going to be the current "lender" and that part or all of the legal responsibility or title could well be transferred to another company or entity.

Then there's the other issues of poor paperwork, paperwork errors, lost documents, mismanagement etc and particularly in the event of repossession.

Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea for UK borrowers to ask "where's "the note"" (or the UK equivalent of the note) if they have a UK mortgage.

Edited by billybong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't it usual to get an annual statement of account on your mortgage? We certainly get one, showing how much it's been reduced.

I would hope that the name, address and logo at the top of that statement and the covering letter might suggest to whom we owe the money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No. No.

You live in the UK, a country off the coast of Europe.The US is another country with a different legal system and processes. You don't live in the USA.

The USA's entire system is based on English common law and maritime law, so its the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All fait money lent by the banks are fraud for a number of reasons:

- No full disclosure

- No equal consideration

- Lawful terms and conditions are not met

- The signature of both parties is not provided

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't it usual to get an annual statement of account on your mortgage? We certainly get one, showing how much it's been reduced.

I would hope that the name, address and logo at the top of that statement and the covering letter might suggest to whom we owe the money.

that would be the servicor of the loan. they get a fee for collecting your payments.

If the loan was securitized, the loan would have been sold to an SIV of some sort...possibly owned by the same bank, but off balance sheet and at arms length (yeah right).

In the US, the SIV is the thing that has sold the MBS bundles....but, they havent transfered title of the security to the SIV...so the SIV has packaged up something it has no legal claim over.

this means the MBS is an empty promise....bad news for the pension fund that bought it...

Doesnt mean the defaulter is free to stop paying though..someone is owed the money, and the default will have the same effect on the total market.

Could this apply here? ALL my mortgages were done with Wet Ink Signatures witnessed....no doubt, the transfers would have to be the same>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our deeds were sent to us some years ago and reside in my filing cabinet. And yes, we do still have a sum outstanding on the mortgage.

Then i suspect what you could have are the "pre-registration" deeds which are entirely different to the actual deeds.

EDIT: Assuming you have a property in England and Wales.

Edited by Driver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No. No.

You live in the UK, a country off the coast of Europe.The US is another country with a different legal system and processes. You don't live in the USA.

Yes yes.

You forget, Gordon told us all 'It started in America!'

Bound to come here

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then i suspect what you could have are the "pre-registration" deeds which are entirely different to the actual deeds.

EDIT: Assuming you have a property in England and Wales.

I have had a look.

There's a covering letter dated July 2005 explaining about title deeds no longer being issued as proof of ownership is now maintained exclusively on the computer records of the Land Registry; a charge certificate; a plan with title number from the LR; and a mortgage deed.

What they prove, exactly, I don't know.

Edited after I'd found the bits of paper.

Edited by Snugglybear

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our deeds were sent to us some years ago and reside in my filing cabinet. And yes, we do still have a sum outstanding on the mortgage.

Those of you with historic properties with lovely old deeds hand-written on parchment - for Chrissakes, don't ever let your solcitor send them to the Land Registry - all old docs are now being shredded by them as title is transferred to an electronic database.

Gord help us when they outsource the whole shebang to Bangalore. I lost all my gorgeous 300 year old parchments when I sent my docs into the Land Reg for updating. All I have is an elexctronic title. Apparently you can request that the Land Reg. return all historic docs to you, or better still, just get your solr.to send them the last 100 years docs instead, and keep the older stuff safe under lock and key.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have had a look.

There's a covering letter dated July 2005 explaining about title deeds no longer being issued as proof of ownership is now maintained exclusively on the computer records of the Land Registry; a charge certificate; a plan with title number from the LR; and a mortgage deed.

What they prove, exactly, I don't know.

Edited after I'd found the bits of paper.

Deeds and charge certificates are increasingly dematerialised in the UK, so the electronic record supplied by the land registry is sufficient proof. Been going since 1999:

http://www.landreg.gov.uk/about_us/pressoffice/notices/default.asp?article_id=3264

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Surely the entry in the Land Registry is good evidence? Unless the robo-signing leaves out notification of transfer?

Edited by 1929crash

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Surely the entry in the Land Registry is good evidence? Unless the robo-signing leaves out notification of transfer?

Yes, in quite a number of instances the entry in the register is the proof. Ownership of shares for instance, the certificate evidences the entry in the register but it is the entry in the register not the share certificate itself that is the proof of ownership.

Electronic registers, hmmm, sounds like a task some of you computer hackers could get your teeth into.

But as I understand the challenges in the USA the problem is where the original lender has sold the loan to a third party, who has sold it on to another party, who has sold it on to another party, and so on and on. The final holder through lax procedures may not have proof that they are the debtor. There is also the problem where mortgages were bundled into CDO's and other financial instruments where the trail is so involved that no one knows who the final holder of the loan is.

Edited by sleepwello'nights

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Surely the entry in the Land Registry is good evidence? Unless the robo-signing leaves out notification of transfer?

Robosigning is a different issue, basically of misleading the court. Then there's the issue of forged documents within those affidavits. Then the ultimate issue of whether the mortgages were correctly assigned in law in the securitisation process.

None of these applies to the UK.

A possession claim is based on a witness statement signed by the case handler for the mortgage. An official copy of the land registry entry is supplied with the witness statement. UK securitisation leaves the originator as servicer with legal title, so the beneficiaries (bond holders entitled to the income that flows from the servicing) have only an equitable right.

The UK system looks shipshape.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robosigning is a different issue, basically of misleading the court. Then there's the issue of forged documents within those affidavits. Then the ultimate issue of whether the mortgages were correctly assigned in law in the securitisation process.

None of these applies to the UK.

A possession claim is based on a witness statement signed by the case handler for the mortgage. An official copy of the land registry entry is supplied with the witness statement. UK securitisation leaves the originator as servicer with legal title, so the beneficiaries (bond holders entitled to the income that flows from the servicing) have only an equitable right.

The UK system looks shipshape.

Thank you for that particularly interesting point, which I was not aware of. B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No. No.

You live in the UK, a country off the coast of Europe.The US is another country with a different legal system and processes. You don't live in the USA.

Merely pointing out my country of residence doesn't answer the question and you failed to get even that right. While I don't live in the USA I don't live in the UK either.

Thankfully numerous posters have provided straightforward answers based more on legal knowledge and less on sarcasm.

Edited by Dave Spart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another angle on the matter of "where's the note"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/oct/14/wells-fargo-mortgage-foreclosure-robo-signer

Comment:

What the bank doesn't want you to know is that since they don't lend people mortgage money from their depositors accounts, they have to immediately sign over the mortgage note to the treasury in order to get the initial debit from the borrowers "strawman" account, and that is the money that the bank loans the borrower!

Can't the financial wizards just bundle up all this robo stamp stuff into more "instruments" and then sell them on and just forget about them :lol::lol:

Edited by billybong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/10/the-wheels-are-coming-off-in-mbs-land-all-50-state-ags-join-probe-banks-abandoning-mers.html

Homeowners like Nicole West now threaten to slow that system, Florida’s so-called rocket docket, to a crawl. West, who has been fighting to save her Jensen Beach house from foreclosure, has leveled a new allegation in her three-year battle: the entire process is based on fraud.

Considering how many UK pensioners have been defrauded of their pensions by UK pension providers some of which have seemed to be endemically fraudulent (and are often mortgage suppliers as well) asking "where's the note" seems to be a wise precaution for UK mortgage holders - at the very least to prove that the "note" (or whatever the UK equivalent is) hasn't been lost or subject to some error. Especially considering that a lot of UK banks providing mortgages are associated with US banks.

Edited by billybong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.safehaven.com/article/18580/the-subprime-debacle-act-2

"Homeowners can only be foreclosed and evicted from their homes by the person or institution who actually has the loan paper...only the note-holder has legal standing to ask a court to foreclose and evict. Not the mortgage, the note, which is the actual IOU that people sign, promising to pay back the mortgage loan.

.........

.........

"Wait, why am I hedging? The foreclosure mills did actually, deliberately, and categorically fake and falsify documents, in order to expedite these foreclosures and evictions. Yves Smith at Naked Capitalism, who has been all over this story, put up a price list for this 'service' from a company called DocX...yes, a price list for forged documents. Talk about your one-stop shopping!

........

........

"And it won't matter if a particular case...or even most cases...were on the up -and up: It won't matter if most of the foreclosures and evictions were truly due to the homeowner failing to pay his mortgage. The fraud committed by the foreclosure mills casts enough doubt that, now, all foreclosures come into question. Not only that, all mortgages come into question.

"People still haven't figured out what all this means. But I'll tell you: if enough mortgage-paying homeowners realize that they may be able to get out of their mortgage loans and keep their houses, scott-free? That's basically a license to halt payments right now, thank you. That's basically a license to tell the banks to take a hike.

"What are the banks going to do...try to foreclose and then evict you? Show me the paper, Mr. Banker, will be all you need to say.

I had a very spirited conversation with good friend Barry Ritholtz today (of The Big Picture). Barry runs money but is also a lawyer and has a somewhat different perspective. He thinks we do not need any legislation and there is a legal cure. He says that real trained people (lawyers and paralegals) need to look at each mortgage and figure it out, and that it can get resolved. It is expensive to the banks; but I agree, if it is just dollars I don't care. Fix it.

But the present system on the note was ok until they started to lie, cheat, defraud like the crooks that they are.

The lawyers think there should be a legal cure - well ok then lawyers should pay for the legal cure and NOT the taxpayer.

The banks think it should be fixed - well ok then the banks should pay for the fix and NOT the taxpayer

(and a chart of BoE assets 2007 - 2010 )

http://www.cumber.com/content/misc/boe.pdf

Edited by billybong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/10/13/the-enormous-mortgage-bond-scandal/

This is where things get positively evil. The investment banks didn’t mind buying up loans they knew were bad, because they considered themselves to be in the moving business rather than the storage business. They weren’t going to hold on to the loans: they were just going to package them up and sell them on to some buy-side sucker.

...

Now here’s the scandal: the investors were never informed of the results of Clayton’s test. The investment banks were perfectly happy to ask for a discount on the loans when they found out how badly-underwritten the loan pool was. But they didn’t pass that discount on to investors, who were kept in the dark about that fact.

....

They are so going down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 261 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.