Smell the Fear Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 This argument can be settled very easily:Overpaid public sector jobs are paid for by public money (taxes). If I avoid taxes then I go to prison/get fined etc. Overpaid private sector jobs are paid for by profits generated by their goods/services which I do not have to buy. Case closed <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ha, the illusion of choice. How come you can survive without buying food, clothes, shelter, a computer? Do you have mystical powers or are you Robin Hood? All of the products you buy come from companies with overpaid management. Whatever you choose, you pay their massively inflated wages. YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO PAY THEIR MASSIVE WAGES UNLESS YOU STARVE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluelady Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Good post! Some public services are valuable to the community. The problems stem from the layers of unnessary management and pointless jobs. These people are bleeding us dry and wrecking the economy with their interfering ways. And yes, why should a person in Cornwall be paid the same as someone working in central London.I recall a director of social services who was condemned for management failures when a child was maltreated and then killed by parents (or foster parents). Amazingly the director of social services (who was on a huge salary) refused to resign and was not sacked. Some time later he suggested that his decision to stay in this cushy job had been much braver and more difficult than quitting. If this sentiment was genuine why did'nt he stay but take a pay cut? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And what benefit would his taking a pay cut have been to anyone? The job became considerably more challenging because of that tragic incident. He - it was the director of social serices for Suffolk County Council - was absolutely right that his resignation would have been the easy option. The morally right thing to do was to stick with the job and ensure that situation never happened again - and so far it hasn't, so why was he wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmisery Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 one word, productivity. It does not really exist in the public sector. Meaningless jargon and tables are what count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 And what benefit would his taking a pay cut have been to anyone? The job became considerably more challenging because of that tragic incident. He - it was the director of social serices for Suffolk County Council - was absolutely right that his resignation would have been the easy option. The morally right thing to do was to stick with the job and ensure that situation never happened again - and so far it hasn't, so why was he wrong?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Blue Lady In answer to your first point the tax payer would have benefited. Why do people in the public services never never get sacked for lazyiness or incompetence? Why should a person who has clearly failed in his job be paid the same as a successful person? Why the hell do we even have directors of social services? The public services in Britain have created a climate where mediocrity and failure are rewarded. Smell the Fear You should duck out of this debate. I am not sure you really understand what is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePiltdownMan Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Ha, the illusion of choice. How come you can survive without buying food, clothes, shelter, a computer?Do you have mystical powers or are you Robin Hood? All of the products you buy come from companies with overpaid management. Whatever you choose, you pay their massively inflated wages. YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO PAY THEIR MASSIVE WAGES UNLESS YOU STARVE. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But does any private sector company enforce purchase of their goods/service with the threat of violence? If you object to buying food, build your own farm, make your own clothes, house, computer etc. Far fetched but perfectly legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smell the Fear Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Blue LadyIn answer to your first point the tax payer would have benefited. Why do people in the public services never never get sacked for lazyiness or incompetence? Why should a person who has clearly failed in his job be paid the same as a successful person? Why the hell do we even have directors of social services? The public services in Britain have created a climate where mediocrity and failure are rewarded. Smell the Fear You should duck out of this debate. I am not sure you really understand what is going on. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not keen on people pointing out a few obvious facts? Taking your ball home? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluelady Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 In answer to your first point the tax payer would have benefited. No they wouldn't. Their council tax wouldn't have gone down because the man took a pay cut. So, once again, where would the benefit lie in his taking a pay cut? Can we try for a sensible answer this time, please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 Not keen on people pointing out a few obvious facts? Taking your ball home?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not at all. You are suggesting that people are forced to buy consumer goods and services from nominated companies. That is clearly ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smell the Fear Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Not at all. You are suggesting that people are forced to buy consumer goods and services from nominated companies. That is clearly ridiculous.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> So where else do people buy food conveniently? You have a choice of supermarkets, but they all have similar prices and similarly overpaid managements. I could buy from small shops, but they still source from large companies with overpaid managements. There are large barriers for a consumer who wants to avoid this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 In answer to your first point the tax payer would have benefited. No they wouldn't. Their council tax wouldn't have gone down because the man took a pay cut. So, once again, where would the benefit lie in his taking a pay cut? Can we try for a sensible answer this time, please? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why on earth should'nt they reduce council tax in such circumstances???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 So where else do people buy food conveniently? You have a choice of supermarkets, but they all have similar prices and similarly overpaid managements.I could buy from small shops, but they still source from large companies with overpaid managements. There are large barriers for a consumer who wants to avoid this. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Food today is cheaper than at any time in our history. The cost of government today is higher than at any time in our history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smell the Fear Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Food today is cheaper than at any time in our history.The cost of government today is higher than at any time in our history. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If food is indeed cheaper (any evidence?) that may be because food is of poorer quality now, and government is of better quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluelady Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Why on earth should'nt they reduce council tax in such circumstances????<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Because. if he took a pay cut of say 10%, that would be £9k - a drop in the ocean in a budget of around £500 million. The saving would be simply used elsewhere within the budget and, even if it were handed back to the council tax payer, would give them a fraction of 1p per year each. Do you honestly think they'd even notice it? I have to say your naivety about public sector spending is wonderfully exposed by y our even asking the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 Because. if he took a pay cut of say 10%, that would be £9k - a drop in the ocean in a budget of around £500 million. The saving would be simply used elsewhere within the budget and, even if it were handed back to the council tax payer, would give them a fraction of 1p per year each. Do you honestly think they'd even notice it?I have to say your naivety about public sector spending is wonderfully exposed by y our even asking the question. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If a system was in place to retrieve the 9K, the public would enjoy massive tax reductions. Such a system would also get rid of jobs that were no longer required. It would remove people who were incompetent. It would dissuade people from treating sick leave as holiday entitlement. It would stop Government departments from engaging in reckless spending sprees at the end of each tax year. It would stop public servants from embarking on frivolous and wasteful projects. Your attitude on this subject reflects the selfish and deeply cynical attitude that public servants have towards tax payers money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okonu Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 You can buy food direct from markets and auctions. At one point in UK when I was living on very little I used to buy potatoes at about 5 p a pound. I have to work with public sector employees. A high percentage are corrupt, venal, and lazy to boot. Private sector employees get fired for that stuff (I know, I just fired someone last week for being late to work 3 times in a month - because in the position he was in that was unacceptable) Granted this isn't in the UK... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluelady Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 If a system was in place to retrieve the 9K, the public would enjoy massive tax reductions. Such a system would also get rid of jobs that were no longer required. It would remove people who were incompetent. It would dissuade people from treating sick leave as holiday entitlement. It would stop Government departments from engaging in reckless spending sprees at the end of each tax year. It would stop public servants from embarking on frivolous and wasteful projects. Your attitude on this subject reflects the selfish and deeply cynical attitude that public servants have towards tax payers money. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Right - so a reduction in one salary of £9k is going to give all the council tax payers in Suffolk a massive tax reduction, is it? How many people do you think live in Suffolk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 Right - so a reduction in one salary of £9k is going to give all the council tax payers in Suffolk a massive tax reduction, is it? How many people do you think live in Suffolk?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> You have missed the point. Have another read of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluelady Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 No, you've missed the point. Try applying a little logic, I find it works wonders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashCrash Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 No, you've missed the point. Try applying a little logic, I find it works wonders.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Bluelady I work in a Semi-Government organisation as contractor(I am a private secotr worker), and konw a bit of functioning of this organisation. 1. There are 3 admins work in this dept. Some days they all work and somedays no one works( due to part time / flexible working hours ? I am not sure). Do yo think it is accpetable ? Who is responsible for this arrangement? management, I suppose . There are people depend on them for services. 2. I needed some 5 minutes worth of 'process' done from different dept and It took me more than 2 weeks to get it done. 3. There is a job shared by two people. one works every other month and the second one works every other week. So, some weeks you get none of them some times both of them. In my opinion Private sector exists to make money and public sector to spend money. No contest, No brainer. I am glad this is comeing to an end, I mean my contract. I can not take any more of this waste of public money. if you cant beat them join them ??? Bluelady, are you by any chance one of the Public sector workers ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 Right - so a reduction in one salary of £9k is going to give all the council tax payers in Suffolk a massive tax reduction, is it? How many people do you think live in Suffolk?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> You do not care about saving £9K because it is someone else's money and as public servants you can never get sacked for being wasteful. This is a 'snouts in the trough' attitude to public spending. You argue that individual savings of £100, £1000 or even £10,000 make no difference on their own and can therefore can be ignored. Well it does matter because these little (and large) acts of wastefulness add up. Current estimates are that public servants waste between £100b and £200b per annum. If they were taught that a saving of £1 matters, we would see massive reductions in tax and council tax bills. As it is, £9K means nothing to you. It is someone els's money and you can always go back for more. There is another issue to consider. Public servants as a group (but not all) are notoriously lazy and lacking in integrity (just look at their sickness rates). A £9K sanction on an employee would have a salutory impact on staff morale. Public servants across the country would learn that there is a penalty for lazyness and failure. The productivity benefits of the £9K sanction could be huge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levy process Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 The ways of spending money ranked from the way which will be done using the most care and prudence and concern for value for money, down to the way which will be done with the least: 1. Spending one's own money on one's self. 2. Spending one's own money on someone else. 3. Spending somone else's money on one's self. 4. Spending somone else's money on someone else. People implementing the budgetary controls on public spending are conducting an example of (4). People buying the same goods and services for themselves are an example of (1). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 Levy process Nicely put! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvonnechristina Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 I have worked previously for a local council in their IT department, and was astonished to find that in terms of equipment, that they had more state of the art up to date equipment than I had come across in the private sector. In fact I came across people in IT who because they were managers had bought various new gadgets which weren't really warranted - all at the expense of the tax payer. Also, the local mayor had his own chauffeur - is this really necessary? I think that if one were to look across councils you will find that they are full of people who spend the money because it is there and don't really think about where it comes from. Fact is, it is not reasonable to pay chief executives etc in the public sector private sector salaries - there should be an element of people working in these jobs because they want to make a difference not because they want to receive a fat cheque at the end of the month. Yes, of course they should receive a reasonable wage but shouldn't get the same as the Chief Exec of ICI. Council tax is way overpriced, and unaffordable for lots of working people, perhaps it needs another approach like the Poll Tax when people say enough is enough and stop paying. Or pay like £75 a month and say that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluelady Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 To take your points one by one: I am a director in a PR company; it's one of the most trivial and meaningless jobs you could possibly imagine, if I packed up tomorrow, nobody would notice which is why I respect talented people who choose to make a difference by working in the public sector. Actually, dog, that £9k is as much my money as it is yours, but I'm not so hard up that I want the 1,000th of a penny I might get back if that guy took a pay cut. And nobody is saying that the chief executive of a council should be paid as much as the chief executive of ICI, as has already been pointed out, most of the people holding these jobs could earn considerably more than they do in the public sector and the making a difference element has already been built into their salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 To take your points one by one:I am a director in a PR company; it's one of the most trivial and meaningless jobs you could possibly imagine, if I packed up tomorrow, nobody would notice which is why I respect talented people who choose to make a difference by working in the public sector. Actually, dog, that £9k is as much my money as it is yours, but I'm not so hard up that I want the 1,000th of a penny I might get back if that guy took a pay cut. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Something tells me that you are not giving us the whole story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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