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If we get these things serving behind a bar can we have the smoking ban lifted ?

That's one of the best lines I've read on here in ages. Classic.

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Terriffic isn't it?

This sort of thing, in the hands of people competing without state interference, would be of huge benefit to everyone.

It would, except for one pretty fundamental problem. To borrow a phrase from Thoreau, the mass of men are told they must work to earn capital to meet their needs, yet the avenues for earning this capital are eroded by technology with replaces human toil. This not only permanently removes a percentage of the population permanently from the workplace, the resultant glut of labour creates a downward pressure on pay for other people.

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Everyone will just end up picking or packing orders in warehouses - or will they?

(Bit boring but worth persisting)

If you watch until the end the final loading into trucks is automated right up until it gets into the back of the truck when it gets spectacularly backward and low-tech. I assume it's some Union thing over there because in this country that method of loading disappeared in the seventies, or before.

Here's how it could be totally automated by tacking this on to the front for pulling pallets out of VNA racking - at the moment I've got a dozen+ people employed driving these machines semi-manually - although they pick mixed orders by also taking individual, different sized, boxes off pallets up and down the height of the racking which is a way off automation - could at some point in the near future automate the putting away of pallets in the first place though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qSVwxl6_lM

I also wonder if there's some kind of forklift driver union element with this as well as would expect it to be automated.

The original vid is the Washington State Liquor Control Board. Where these boards exist they're a sort of interesting hangover from prohibition. The state authorities completely control the distribution of all alcohol in the state - hence the huge distribution warehouse operation.

It's a bit of an example of the sort of state intervention in capitalism that some people argue for. One of the seemingly laudable aims of the WSLCB is ensuring american liquor producers and the american jobs they create are supported.

Of course it soon lapses into typical do-gooding state hypocrisy when it appears the WSLCB is investing (what might be an impossibly large capital expenditure sum to raise for a private business) in the ultimate in automation and destruction of the american jobs it claims to protect.

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It would, expect for one pretty fundamental problem. To borrow a phrase from Thoreau, the mass of men are told they must work to earn capital to meet their needs, yet the avenues for earning this capital are eroded by technology with replaces human toil. This not only permanently removes a percentage of the population permanently from the workplace, the resultant glut of labour creates a downward pressure on pay for other people.

So wages were at their highest before the use of tools?

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If we get these things serving behind a bar can we have the smoking ban lifted ?

Behold, the future!

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It would, except for one pretty fundamental problem. To borrow a phrase from Thoreau, the mass of men are told they must work to earn capital to meet their needs, yet the avenues for earning this capital are eroded by technology with replaces human toil. This not only permanently removes a percentage of the population permanently from the workplace, the resultant glut of labour creates a downward pressure on pay for other people.

No, as you know by now the issue is nothing to do with labour saving devices, which have brought nothing but wealth and freedom to millions of people.

You seem to think that the stock of wealth created remains static whereas of course it has no to limit. Find machines to do this stuff and leave people to do other things which they'll find out by seeing what folk want and will pay for. Except - oh dear - they aren't really free or equipped to do that are they?

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No doubt Bogbrush that is how the system has worked over time. But it seems across all the industrialized nations more jobs are disappearing than being created.

Actually the last gasp was the FIRE economy. Because those sectors were the last ones that were labour intensive. So it was completely rational to move the surplus labour into those fields. But we see now that those blew up, Ireland, Spain, USA in serious trouble with unemployment.

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No doubt Bogbrush that is how the system has worked over time. But it seems across all the industrialized nations more jobs are disappearing than being created.

Actually the last gasp was the FIRE economy. Because those sectors were the last ones that were labour intensive. So it was completely rational to move the surplus labour into those fields. But we see now that those blew up, Ireland, Spain, USA in serious trouble with unemployment.

The options are;

1. Stand against technology development. If it works, try stopping the tide next.

2. Wring hands and proclaim "isn't it all so awful?".

3. Understand and address why people can't find other stuff to do.

If I were in charge I'd be leaning toward option 3.

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The options are;

1. Stand against technology development. If it works, try stopping the tide next.

2. Wring hands and proclaim "isn't it all so awful?".

3. Understand and address why people can't find other stuff to do.

If I were in charge I'd be leaning toward option 3.

I like Option 2.

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The options are;

1. Stand against technology development. If it works, try stopping the tide next.

2. Wring hands and proclaim "isn't it all so awful?".

3. Understand and address why people can't find other stuff to do.

If I were in charge I'd be leaning toward option 3.

You forgot option 4. Cast aside the surplus people.

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If we get these things serving behind a bar can we have the smoking ban lifted ?

Going off at a slight tangent I read in my local rag (Thanet Times) that the smoking ban is coming under review this Autumn, will try to find a link otherwise will scan and post the article later.

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You forgot option 4. Cast aside the surplus people.

Not really an option is it; you have to still feed them if they can't feed themselves, or else they eat you.

Much better to focus on option 3.

I've never seen it tried yet, pity as it's fairly obviously the right way to go.

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It would, except for one pretty fundamental problem. To borrow a phrase from Thoreau, the mass of men are told they must work to earn capital to meet their needs, yet the avenues for earning this capital are eroded by technology with replaces human toil. This not only permanently removes a percentage of the population permanently from the workplace, the resultant glut of labour creates a downward pressure on pay for other people.

no, machines cost money, so its an economic decision to buy a machine, or hire workers.

at some point, the demand for products made by the machine will dwindle, the machine will become uneconomic...and again...man will rule.

the other point being, if machines did ALL the work, man wouldnt need money...just a feed station and somewhere to lie and consume Martinis.

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Not really an option is it; you have to still feed them if they can't feed themselves, or else they eat you.

Much better to focus on option 3.

I've never seen it tried yet, pity as it's fairly obviously the right way to go.

I agree, but it is the option that is currently being pursued.

Of your options, 1 is clearly untenable, 2 changes nothing and 3, as you say, has never been attempted.

So we are left with, paying them to do nothing, or paying someone else to ensure they don't eat us.

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the other point being, if machines did ALL the work, man wouldnt need money...just a feed station and somewhere to lie and consume Martinis.

No, the guy who owns the machines would get the Martinis and everyone else would get try to survive as best they could.

It's the sci fi stories from the 50'/60's, were technological advances would mean we'd only have to work an hour a day, and spend the rest of our time painting, or ******ing or something. Well the advances and efficiency came; they just made the mistake of assuming that the benefit would be shared.

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  • 189 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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