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Kyoto

The Upper Limit On Tuition Fees 'should Be Removed'

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11510466

Universities in England should have no upper limit on tuition fees, Lord Browne's review is set to recommend.

But government support will only be guaranteed up to a maximum of £7,000 per year - which is likely to make this the upper fee for most universities.

This would mean more than doubling the current tuition fee of £3,290.

Nobody wants the cuts to affect them, but loading up a generation with debt to allow creation of this two tier system is not the way to do it.

It might take a few years but this will bring the house price crash we're all waiting for. This is basically giving huge swathes of our next middle classes a small mortgage before they can even think about buying a house.

The country really is going to the dogs if we can't afford to educate the best and brightest.

(Regardless of your opinions on our education system, they genuinally will be the best we have.)

As discussed on previous threads, I am really hoping for some significant merit based scholarship component to all of this.

Edited by Kyoto

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There won't be any merit-based scholarships though. Until they fix the flawed system of rewarding single parent households, punishing those that have no association with their "wealthy" parents, and subsidising Oxford Deans, I'll oppose this increase.

Education needs no government involvement - if that means I have to quit because the market determines fees are too low right now, so be it. I'd be a hypocrite if I said otherwise.

Edited by HPC001

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The esteemed Vince Cable wanted a Graduate Tax, but now supports some complicated system of loans with differential interest rates. Clear and consistant then.

The Liberals are all signed up, literally, to opposing tuition fees. The National Union of Students holds the document.

The politicians all want a direct link between each university and the fees paid. To make students powerful consumers.

The universities want as much money as they can for their shoddy product.

No agreement on common aims, then. It will be a lash up.

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There won't be any merit-based scholarships though. Until they fix the flawed system of rewarding single parent households, punishing those that have no association with their "wealthy" parents, and subsidising Oxford Deans, I'll oppose this increase.

Education needs no government involvement - if that means I have to quit because the market determines fees are too low right now, so be it. I'd be a hypocrite if I said otherwise.

I'm surprised that student numbers haven't fallen off already. There are are couple young people at my workplace that didn't go to University because of the debt and because older siblings only ended up in poor jobs they could have landed without a degree. There must be thousands making that judgment. Is it the foreign students or more courses being dubbed 'degrees' that are masking what I'm sure by now must be a trend?

Edited by CrashedOutAndBurned

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There won't be any merit-based scholarships though. Until they fix the flawed system of rewarding single parent households, punishing those that have no association with their "wealthy" parents, and subsidising Oxford Deans, I'll oppose this increase.

Education needs no government involvement - if that means I have to quit because the market determines fees are too low right now, so be it. I'd be a hypocrite if I said otherwise.

We need to realise that the policy of allowing nearly 50% of youngsters to go to something called a University to get a degree is totally unnecessary. It is this which has made it impossible to pay for it. The expansion of this type of terciary education was stupid an expensive. Far too many so called degrees are not worth the paper the they are written on to employers who know full well what they need.

Reduce it now and put it back to the sensible level of 30 years ago. Make most other terciary education a vocational and not such an academic experience. Have many more local business orientated courses. What is the point of creating hunderds of thousands of graduates who cannot get a job, cannot run a business, are in massive debt and cannot pay their way?

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I'm surprised that student numbers haven't fallen off already. There are are couple young people at my workplace that didn't go to University because of the debt and because older siblings only ended up in poor jobs they could have landed without a degree. There must be thousands making that judgment. Is it the foreign students or more courses being dubbed 'degrees' that are masking what I'm sure by now must be a trend?

Possibly both, it does seem like there are a lot of foreigners with parents' money to chuck at a degree here.

I'm trying to do something useful in taking this course i.e. skills that will be used in the real world, right now I'm looking at VPNs and hot-desking (may as well be specific for the IT-literate here).

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We need to realise that the policy of allowing nearly 50% of youngsters to go to something called a University to get a degree is totally unnecessary. It is this which has made it impossible to pay for it. The expansion of this type of terciary education was stupid an expensive. Far too many so called degrees are not worth the paper the they are written on to employers who know full well what they need.

Reduce it now and put it back to the sensible level of 30 years ago. Make most other terciary education a vocational and not such an academic experience. Have many more local business orientated courses. What is the point of creating hunderds of thousands of graduates who cannot get a job, cannot run a business, are in massive debt and cannot pay their way?

Lack of business investment in training isn't helping, but I'm not in the position of being an 18 year old fresh out of college (heh, if only) so I'm not really able to comment on the employability of most new entrants.

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We need to realise that the policy of allowing nearly 50% of youngsters to go to something called a University to get a degree is totally unnecessary. It is this which has made it impossible to pay for it. The expansion of this type of terciary education was stupid an expensive. Far too many so called degrees are not worth the paper the they are written on to employers who know full well what they need.

Reduce it now and put it back to the sensible level of 30 years ago. Make most other terciary education a vocational and not such an academic experience. Have many more local business orientated courses. What is the point of creating hunderds of thousands of graduates who cannot get a job, cannot run a business, are in massive debt and cannot pay their way?

Education at third level should be supply and demand - business should be demanding and in most vocational cases, supplying, what they want. Unfortunately for small/growing/innovative businesses that suffer most from a lack of workforce skills, corporations have managed to externalise most training either to the government here (our current system of behind-the-times guesswork) or even better for them, governments abroad via offshoring or other. The same corporations also demand huge subsidies and lower taxes. The wonders of globalisation. People really are pointing at the wrong targets here.

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If this happens will Uni's keep putting up the fees year in year out ie if you do a degree 1st year fee £4k, 2nd year fee £4.5 3rd year fee £5.5k

You would be at the mercy of the Uni's putting up your fees during the course.

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Yeah, I dunno, there are few things more perverse than the taxes paid by bus drivers and labourers going to pay for legions of mega-rich Jemimas and Cressidas to study worthless yet very expensive subjects at uni... but will this be an improvement?

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If this happens will Uni's keep putting up the fees year in year out ie if you do a degree 1st year fee £4k, 2nd year fee £4.5 3rd year fee £5.5k

You would be at the mercy of the Uni's putting up your fees during the course.

This is partly why I'm opposing this. They've already changed the student loan conditions by an act of parliament.

I'm in a difficult position here as far as the employment market is concerned - not a middle aged guy ready to move onto senior management (which always seems to have a large number of vacancies) but not a green, cheap youngster to be exploited on £95 a week apprenticeships. Over-qualified for shop jobs, but not carrying enough <insert proprietary qualification here> to get back into a steady professional IT role (although my degree bundles in the most wanted ones which should help).

What's a bloke to do? Seeking work on its own isn't going to conjure up the funds to survive, £50 a week doesn't cut it in the SE. To be honest, the very low interest rates make student loans very attractive as a source of capital - I've seen a lot of students who live with parents use them to fund their toys (cars, computer equipment etc) because they blatantly don't need it to pay for living costs.

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I would support no cap on fees at all.

1) Govt subsidy of higher education puts an artificial cap on the number of students that are allowed to attend any University because the govt decides how many places to fund. Every year hundreds of people are turned away from oxbridge who are smart enough to go there, there just isnt room for them.

2) People who dont go to uni, should not pay tax for those that do to enjoy a subsidised fee. Particularly given that a degree increases your earning potential.

The most benefit of the degree goes to the person who gets it - therefore they should pay.

3)Students paying more will lead to them demanding better teaching and better facilities and will improve our universities faster than govt dictat. That would help make them even better and turn them into a bigger export market for the UK.

4) all proposals are to allow people to pay nothing up front to attend, and then only pay back when they are able to afford to do so. The interest on the loans is very low, so the cost of going is outweighed by the benefit accrued over a lifetime.

5) research has shown that increasing fees will not dent demand for HE very much at all - so lets do it!

Any savings can be channeled into a tax cut for the poorest.

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Millions used to go into crafts or professions to learn to make something or provide a vital service to others. Now millions do degrees (or don't, it doesn't matter) that will have no jobs at the end of them, jobs that are now unskilled or office drone work. Then we wonder why stress, binge drinking and escapism through drugs is on the rise.

Edited by shipbuilder

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I'm wondering if the banks are quietly lobbying behind this entire tuition fee plan.

Banks, having been caught-out with flaky derivative based lending. Their over-zealous and reckless lending on property that's now been closed-off as they're being watched carefully by regulatory authorities. However. they are still banks and they make money through lending so might it be them anticipating a lucrative new market in large long-term loans here? They may even plan to introduce tuition fees for 'premier grade' sixth-forms too. I have a feeling that they might try and load-up a typical 21 year old's debt to around the £50k mark. Being loaded at the start of a career they might stand a chance of extracting their money with interest, fees and the like.

Not sure if they have thought as far as future post grads being able to afford mortgages though?

Edited by TheEngineer

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Millions used to go into crafts or professions to learn to make something or provide a vital service to others. Now millions do degrees (or don't, it doesn't matter) that will have no jobs at the end of them, jobs that are now unskilled or office drone work. Then we wonder why stress, binge drinking and escapism through drugs is on the rise.

I'm sure someone else has already expressed my view on a different thread, but we need degrees in vocational subjects: bricklaying, carpentry, plumbiing, tiling, painting and decorating, electrics and gas - and we need to employ graduates from these courses to build GOOD houses. Currently, to get qualified and get work in these industries you normally need an NVQ, but to enrol on an NVQ course you already need to be working in the industry. We need a more degree-type system for studying these trades I think. This would help get more skilled people into these industries and address some people misconception that studying such subjects is somehow inferior to studying economics, political science etc.

Plus, running your own business should be a degree.

I used to work in a mid-range ability university and - just my opinion of course - around 40% of students weren't suited to a career in academia. I'm also unconvinced by the assumption that all degrees give transferable skills that will help for a career in a white-collar industry.

I did a BSc and PhD when younger and work for a uni now - but if I was starting out now at 18 I'd train as an Electrician.

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  • 152 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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