Coalition Hints At Bringing End To Universal Benefit

[Minos]

Do you want to pay universal benefits to all or not? If yes, do you think you could sub me the CB I'll be losing from 2013?

Thought not.

I don't think you should be taxed in the frist place just to have the money returned to you.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

I don't think you should be taxed in the frist place just to have the money returned to you.

Well that's not going to happen is it?

[BlinkTooFast]

Go one step further to a citizen's wage. Every adult Brit gets £150/week, regardless of income or need. No income support, no HB, no disability allowance, no state pension, no breeding allowance.

How about, for every £1000 earned, you lose 1%, so that someone on £100,000 would get nothing. This would allow for a higher citizen's wage to be given.

I dunno. Someone on £200,000 would lose £400,000. I like where you're going, but there's something I can't quite put my finger on...

I mean you lose 1% of the £150 citizens's wage, so someone on £50,000 would be given £75 per week (on top of their net salary), someone on £100,000 would recieve £0 and someone on £200,000 would also recieve £0

Ah, I see. No - too complicated, and misses the principle. Just give everyone a flat rate regardless of means or income, then everything they earn is on top of that. Nice and simple to administer and police.

It would get even more complicated as inflation kicks in - any falling scale would have to be continuously readjusted, otherwise when the minimum wage becomes £30,000 per hour, anyone working 4 hours a year would receive no citizen's wage. (Which, before any bright spark chirps up, would also increase with inflation)

[alwightchav!]

With all due respect to that genuinely worked for it, the elderly do receive quite a bit overall. Most of the welfare state spending is actually on pensions. In addition, free or greatly reduced travel costs, the aforementioned winter fuel payment etc etc.

This i will never understand.

Give the young working person on NMW, underemployed, unemployed, etc... the free or reduced travel costs so they do not have to absorb this out of a low wage/low benefits... encouraging productivity and working.

[alwightchav!]

Yes, why are old duffers trundling along to buy half of John Lewis in their brand new Hondas getting special benefits? Crazy.

Case in point - my old man gets a free car from the state (due to mum on borderline disability payments), plus they get free bus passes... just in case the car breaks down i suppose

[porca misèria]

Ah, I see. No - too complicated, and misses the principle. Just give everyone a flat rate regardless of means or income, then everything they earn is on top of that. Nice and simple to administer and police.

It would get even more complicated as inflation kicks in - any falling scale would have to be continuously readjusted, otherwise when the minimum wage becomes £30,000 per hour, anyone working 4 hours a year would receive no citizen's wage. (Which, before any bright spark chirps up, would also increase with inflation)

It needn't be complicated and hard to figure out. Here's a costed proposal (this is a link), albeit hung on an unlikely peg.

[Oh Dear]

How about something like this;

every person has a transferable tax allowance (children half that of an adult)

up to the maximum limit of the tax allowance, those out of work recieve 40% of the tax allowance

anyone earning under their tax allowance recieves 40% of the remaining amount

any earnings over the tax allowance are taxed at 40%

No other benefits of any description.

[Laughing Gnome]

Go one step further to a citizen's wage. Every adult Brit gets £150/week, regardless of income or need. No income support, no HB, no disability allowance, no state pension, no breeding allowance.

Simple to administer.

Encourages working - you don't work you get £150. You earn £10 you get £160. You earn £100 you get £250. You earn £1000 you get £1150.

Stops benefits tourism.

Stops people complaining about fair/unfair.

Taxes may have to go up for it, but hey, as a taxpayer I would be happy to pay more tax to see a scheme like this, even though my wife is a non-Brit and I have kids. Before long it will see more people work, the economy will pick up, tax revenues increase, and the tax bill goes down.

Not trying to rubbish the idea, I rather like it. But. If everyones income increases by £150, less the increased tax burden,

would that not result in a general bidding up of essentials, naturally I am thinking principaly of rents and mortgage borrowings?

As I say, not opposed to it but I think it would have to be part of a carefully thought out package of measeures to avoid unintended consequences.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Laughing Gnome

[Laughing Gnome]

Where these comparatively small universal benefits are concerned, it is probably cheaper just to pay them out than to employ an army of civil servants to process entitlements. Pragmatism and all that.

If you want to take from those who can afford it and who actually benefitted massively from the "boom", raise higher rate income taxes.

What really worries the Government here is not the few pounds a large number of people would pay on the margin, but the

significants amounts that would be taken from their mates on six figures plus.

Yeah, and of course, they are all hardworking entreprenuers. Wrong! At least 9 000 are public sector fat parasites, and not a few are bankers.

[phead]

Case in point - my old man gets a free car from the state (due to mum on borderline disability payments), plus they get free bus passes... just in case the car breaks down i suppose

The government gives my parents the winter fuel allowance, and then gives them free coal, left hand meet right hand.

[Liquid Goldfish]

I don't understand why free bus passes causes such a furore politically

Surely almost all pensioners lwho are ikely to vote will have cars

I don't know any pensioenrs who use the bus and my circle is by no means at the rich end of things

[hilltop]

I don't understand why free bus passes causes such a furore politically

Surely almost all pensioners lwho are ikely to vote will have cars

I don't know any pensioenrs who use the bus and my circle is by no means at the rich end of things

Free bus passes are all about accounting.

The Government has committed itself, and I do not think this was a Party issue, to ensuring a reasonable level of bus services.

So giving pensioners free rides is a marginal activity, the empty buses will be there anyway.

Here in the rural areas, many pensioners, despite owning cars, like the buses. They have time available and do not like the difficulty of parking.

[shipbuilder]

Ah, I see. No - too complicated, and misses the principle. Just give everyone a flat rate regardless of means or income, then everything they earn is on top of that. Nice and simple to administer and police.

It would get even more complicated as inflation kicks in - any falling scale would have to be continuously readjusted, otherwise when the minimum wage becomes £30,000 per hour, anyone working 4 hours a year would receive no citizen's wage. (Which, before any bright spark chirps up, would also increase with inflation)

The more the benefits system is messed around with, the more people will see benefit in simplification. I think a citizen's wage is inevitable.

[shipbuilder]

Not trying to rubbish the idea, I rather like it. But. If everyones income increases by £150, less the increased tax burden,

would that not result in a general bidding up of essentials, naturally I am thinking principaly of rents and mortgage borrowings?

As I say, not opposed to it but I think it would have to be part of a carefully thought out package of measeures to avoid unintended consequences.

As it's the simplest form of benefit, it automatically has the least unintended consequences. Fund with a land value tax and housing prices are sorted as well. It has all the effects of a wage - once it's spent you don't get any more, so people 'cut their cloth' to suit.

I would set it at a higher level than most because I think it should be used to pay for public services (possibly apart from the NHS) on a 'pay as you use' basis - cutting out the government middlemen in public service funding.

[OMG]

Where these comparatively small universal benefits are concerned, it is probably cheaper just to pay them out than to employ an army of civil servants to process entitlements. Pragmatism and all that

That was my knee-jerk feeling too.

[Guillotine]

How do you stop benefit tourism by introducing a citizens income?

Looks like free money with no strings attached to me.

[samwise]

How do you stop benefit tourism by introducing a citizens income?

Looks like free money with no strings attached to me.

No benefits until you have permanent residency or citizenship, whichever comes first?

Not trying to rubbish the idea, I rather like it. But. If everyone's income increases by £150, less the increased tax burden,

would that not result in a general bidding up of essentials, naturally I am thinking principally of rents and mortgage borrowings?

As I say, not opposed to it but I think it would have to be part of a carefully thought out package of measures to avoid unintended consequences.

And you don't think that employers would take the opportunity to adjust salaries down by £150 a week?

[RufflesTheGuineaPig]

The enext election wont be won by the tories OR labour.

It will be won by a new formed party that represents purely the edlerly.

[Alan B'Stard MP]

The enext election wont be won by the tories OR labour.

It will be won by a new formed party that represents purely the edlerly.

Which is why we need to put all polling booths onto the back of low-loaders which trawl the streets at 15mph come polling day.

You have to catch it if you want your vote counted.

[SarahBell]

Do you want to pay universal benefits to all or not? If yes, do you think you could sub me the CB I'll be losing from 2013?

Thought not.

I'll be losing it then anyway I think - my lad will be too old by then!

People who rely on CB better get their arses in gear and sort their wallets out by the time their kids grow up.

[scottbeard]

The real issue is that Camoron promised, in his setting out his stall for election, that free bus travel and winter fuel allowence would not be cut.

If he goes back on that pledge, he should resign. He would be seen by everyone that he is a mountebank and unfit for the job he holds.

Any link to where he promised that? I don't remember it

Even if he did, the fact is that winter fuel allowance was only invented by Gordon Brown a few years ago, and now all of a sudden it's being treated like a sacred cow!

Everyone seemed to manage without it before, and we can't afford to pay benefits to those who don't need them.

[White Craw]

Any link to where he promised that? I don't remember it

Even if he did, the fact is that winter fuel allowance was only invented by Gordon Brown a few years ago, and now all of a sudden it's being treated like a sacred cow!

Everyone seemed to manage without it before, and we can't afford to pay benefits to those who don't need them.

http://www.conservatives.com/News/Speeches/2010/05/David_Cameron_Vote_Conservative_for_guaranteed_change_on_Friday.aspx

"And let me say very clearly to pensioners if you have a Conservative Government your Winter Fuel Allowance, your bus pass, your Pension Credit, your free TV licence all these things are safe. You can read my lips, that is a promise from my heart. Don’t believe the lies you’re being told by the Labour Party just because they’ve got nothing positive to say."

Of course, we don't have a Conservative government...........

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

http://www.conservatives.com/News/Speeches/2010/05/David_Cameron_Vote_Conservative_for_guaranteed_change_on_Friday.aspx

"And let me say very clearly to pensioners if you have a Conservative Government your Winter Fuel Allowance, your bus pass, your Pension Credit, your free TV licence all these things are safe. You can read my lips, that is a promise from my heart. Don’t believe the lies you’re being told by the Labour Party just because they’ve got nothing positive to say."

Of course, we don't have a Conservative government...........

Doesn't mention means testing either...

[Orsino]

My parents are over 60 but have not retired. My father is a top-rate taxpayer. My parents don't need the winter fuel allowance to heat their house in Kensington. They don't need free travel when they have a Maserati parked outside. They are currently on holiday in Italy on their yacht. I find it morally wrong that low-income workers are taxed to subsidise my parent's lifestyle and I'm sure my parents would agree.

[Mrs Bear]

I don't understand why free bus passes causes such a furore politically

Surely almost all pensioners lwho are ikely to vote will have cars

I don't know any pensioenrs who use the bus and my circle is by no means at the rich end of things

An awful lot depends on where you live and the pub. transport available.

Around here (good transport) I know of quite a few sixty-pluses with cars, who use them a lot less since they got their bus passes. (In London it covers train/tube as well.)

Most of these people wouldn't use pub. transport so much if they didn't have a bus pass - they'd tend to use their cars.

So I suppose it could be argued that at least they're 'green.'.

OTOH I know of several others of the same age in the depths of the country, who haven't even bothered to claim their bus passes, since their pub. transport consists of 2 buses a day if you're lucky.