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Realistbear

U K External Debt 416% Of Gdp And Among Worst In World

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

External debt as % of GDP

United States 13,450,000,000,000 30 June 2009 43,758 94%
United Kingdom 9,088,000,000,000 30 June 2009 147,060 416%
Germany 5,208,000,000,000 30 June 2009 63,493 155%
France 5,021,000,000,000 30 June 2009 80,209 188%
Netherlands 3,733,000,000,000 31 December 2009 226,503 470%
Spain 2,410,000,000,000 30 June 2009 52,588 165%
Italy 2,328,000,000,000 31 December 2008 39,234 101%
Ireland 2,287,000,000,000 30 September 2009 515,671 1004%
Japan 2,132,000,000,000 30 June 2009 16,714 42%
Luxembourg 1,994,000,000,000 30 June 2009 4,028,283 3854%
Belgium 1,354,000,000,000 31 December 2008 126,188 267%
Switzerland 1,339,000,000,000 30 June 2009 182,899 271%
Australia 920,000,000,000 31 December 2009 est. 42,057 92%
Canada 833,800,000,000 30 June 2009 24,749 62%
Austria 808,900,000,000 30 September 2009 97,411 212%
Sweden 669,100,000,000 30 June 2009 72,594 165%
Hong Kong 655,100,000,000 30 September 2009 92,725 311%
Denmark 607,400,000,000 30 June 2009 110,216 196%
Greece 552,800,000,000 30 June 2009 49,525 167%
Norway 548,100,000,000 30 June 2009 113,174 143%
Portugal 507,000,000,000 30 June 2009 47,632 223%

The internal debt picture is not a lot prettier for us:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt' rel="external nofollow">
1 Zimbabwe 282.60 2009 est.
2 Japan 189.30 2009 est.
3 Saint Kitts and Nevis 185.00 2009 est.
4 Lebanon 156.00 2009 est.
5 Jamaica 124.50 2009 est.
6 Italy 115.20 2009 est.
7 Greece 113.40 2009 est.
8 Singapore 113.10 2009 est.
9 Iceland 107.60 2009 est.
10 Sudan 103.70 2009 est.
11 Belgium 97.60 2009 est.
12 Sri Lanka 86.70 2009 est.
13 Egypt 80.10 2009 est.
14 Israel 78.40 2009 est.
15 Hungary 78.00 2009 est.
16 France 77.50 2009 est.
17 Portugal 76.90 2009 est.
18 Canada 75.40 2009 est.
19 Germany 72.10 2009 est.
22 UK 68.10
47 United States 52.9

Anyone for £ or Euros? :o

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Do you understand what you are posting?

One is a list of countries by external debt, the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services, where the public debt is the money or credit owed by any level of government, from central to local, and the private debt the money or credit owed by private households or private corporations based in the country under consideration.

The other is a list of countries by public debt as listed by CIA's World Factbook 2010. It is the cumulative total of all government borrowings less repayments that are denominated in a country's home currency. Public debt should not be confused with external debt, which reflects the foreign currency liabilities of both the private and public sector and must be financed out of foreign exchange earnings. The figures are represented as a percentage of annual gross domestic product.

Edited by Realistbear

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Gross external debt as a percentage of GDP is meaningless.

Countries with a large international banking sector, low tax rates or favourable international tax treaties attract a lot of leveraged, foreign currency assets.

The fact that large global banks choose to hold some US Treasuries funded through the repo market in the UK doesn't say anything about the ability of UK based borrowers to fund their external liabilities.

Net external debt as a percentage of GDP would be a good starting point to understand the risk as it would net out the effects of the international banking and "tax juridiction shopping" sectors.

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Realistbear, even for your already low standards this thread is appalling, if anything it shows you don't understand anything about economics...

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Realistbear, even for your already low standards this thread is appalling, if anything it shows you don't understand anything about economics...

IMO they are nice charts and show some good data which has all been carefully and painstakenly compiled. Again:

It is beneficial to understand that the data on external debt, the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services, where the public debt is the money or credit owed by any level of government, from central to local, and the private debt the money or credit owed by private households or private corporations based in the country under consideration.

Even more beneficial to understand that the list of public debt by public debt is listed by CIA's World Factbook 2010. We should all be aware of the cumulative total of all government borrowings less repayments that are denominated in a country's home currency. Make sure that the public debt is not confused with external debt, which reflects the foreign currency liabilities of both the private and public sector and must be financed out of foreign exchange earnings. The figures are represented as a percentage of annual gross domestic product.

Paraphrastically speaking, of course.

And if that wasn't illuminating enough we have much made of the US current annual debt at 1.3TR which is less than our own debt at $1.36TR (£242.2bn) after factoring population differential which in the case of 2 equally industrialised nations is quite a reasonable approach.

Edited by Realistbear

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http://www.orange.co.uk/money/debt/7047.htm

A lot worse: UK mired in £5 trillion of debt

Britain has sunk into a pit of debt which is five times deeper than previously feared, with the country now owing the equivalent of £200,000 per household.

Instead of the £1 trillion reading normally presented as the nation's debt, the UK is in the red by closer to £5 trillion, figures from the Office for National Statistics reveal.

The oft-quoted £903bn figure for public sector net debt is a borrowing sum calculated by the ONS according to international standards.

But a broader set of ONS figures taking in Government liabilities show unfunded public service pension obligations could add another £1.2 trillion and liabilities in unfunded state pension schemes a further £1.35 trillion.

The Government's stakes in RBS and Lloyds account for an extra £1.5 trillion - leaving a debt mountain of £4.953 trillion once public sector net debt is added in.The sum is almost four times the size of the UK's total gross domestic product in 2009.

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And if that wasn't illuminating enough we have much made of the US current annual debt at 1.3TR which is less than our own debt at $1.36TR (£242.2bn) after factoring population differential which in the case of 2 equally industrialised nations is quite a reasonable approach.

I'm lost. They both sound incredibly similar to me but I'm supposed to be worried :blink:

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2 orange tangos, a conker and a finger of fudge, which by my calculations still leaves a deficit

OOOOh well that depends how good the conker is doesn't it.

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Gross external debt as a percentage of GDP is meaningless.

Countries with a large international banking sector, low tax rates or favourable international tax treaties attract a lot of leveraged, foreign currency assets.

The fact that large global banks choose to hold some US Treasuries funded through the repo market in the UK doesn't say anything about the ability of UK based borrowers to fund their external liabilities.

Net external debt as a percentage of GDP would be a good starting point to understand the risk as it would net out the effects of the international banking and "tax juridiction shopping" sectors.

Exactly!

BTW, I've been curious about this NET for a while. Does anyone have some info about it?

I remember reading something from a UK official source that was reassuring - most of our gov. debt (bonds) was held by UK residents. Sorry I don't remember the source.

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Default on the debt. Never borrow again. Problem solved.

"If you owe the bank $100 that’s your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that’s the bank’s problem". — J.P. Getty

Edited by fellow

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Default on the debt. Never borrow again. Problem solved.

"If you owe the bank $100 that’s your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that’s the bank’s problem". — J.P. Getty

Do you think, perhaps, that maybe, if we refuse to pay it all back then...

The sun will still continue to rise.

Nobody will manage to tow the UK to an area with a slighty warmer climate in an attempt at repossession.

Nobody can actually remove us from our homes without our permission.

Let 'em crash. Given the lies we have been told about hoe the economy is, why should we believe any of 'em are "too big too fail!"

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Do you think, perhaps, that maybe, if we refuse to pay it all back then...

The sun will still continue to rise.

Nobody will manage to tow the UK to an area with a slighty warmer climate in an attempt at repossession.

Nobody can actually remove us from our homes without our permission.

Let 'em crash. Given the lies we have been told about hoe the economy is, why should we believe any of 'em are "too big too fail!"

Absolutely, and as I'm sure Injin will explain, the money they lent us never even existed in the first place.

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IMO they are nice charts and show some good data which has all been carefully and painstakenly compiled. Again:

It is beneficial to understand that the data on external debt, the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services, where the public debt is the money or credit owed by any level of government, from central to local, and the private debt the money or credit owed by private households or private corporations based in the country under consideration.

Even more beneficial to understand that the list of public debt by public debt is listed by CIA's World Factbook 2010. We should all be aware of the cumulative total of all government borrowings less repayments that are denominated in a country's home currency. Make sure that the public debt is not confused with external debt, which reflects the foreign currency liabilities of both the private and public sector and must be financed out of foreign exchange earnings. The figures are represented as a percentage of annual gross domestic product.

Paraphrastically speaking, of course.

And if that wasn't illuminating enough we have much made of the US current annual debt at 1.3TR which is less than our own debt at $1.36TR (£242.2bn) after factoring population differential which in the case of 2 equally industrialised nations is quite a reasonable approach.

Sometimes, when you've made a bit of a mistake but learned from it (not sure that this is case here), it's best to acknowledge same and move on.

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spent 40 mins trying to find the net external debt figures and failed. Is it because there are no details on what the external assets are worth? If someone has the figures we would love to see them.

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OMG - The World has an external debt of $56.9tr!!! 98% of the entire world GDP we need to pay to aliens!!!

Panic now, peeps.

Not at all.

If we owe the aliens money, we're safe.

It's when we've paid them back that we need to start worrying.

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Sometimes, when you've made a bit of a mistake but learned from it (not sure that this is case here), it's best to acknowledge same and move on.

Your disagreement is with the data--I posted it because it is interesting and reveals facts about our economy that some may not be aware of.

You can also file a complaint vs. the website that presents the data if you think there are errors. Do you have any particular mistakes in mind? <_<

FWIW the amount owed to us by other countries can be calculated, in part, by examining our balance of trade data. Currently in deficit:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=199

The UK’s deficit on trade in goods and services was £4.9 billion in July,
compared with a deficit of £3.9 billion in June (originally published as a deficit of £3.3 billion).
The surplus on trade in services was £3.8 billion in July, compared with a surplus of £3.6 billion in June.
The deficit on trade in goods widened to £8.7 billion in July, compared with a deficit of £7.5 billion in June (originally published as a deficit of £7.4 billion). Exports fell by £0.2 billion but imports rose by £0.9 billion.
The deficit with EU countries widened to £3.9 billion in July, compared with a deficit of £3.2 billion in June. Exports fell by £0.2 billion but imports rose by £0.5 billion.
The deficit with non-EU countries widened to £4.8 billion in July, compared with a deficit of £4.3 billion in June. Exports fell by less than £0.1 billion but imports rose by £0.4 billion.
Excluding oil and erratic items, the volume of exports fell by 0.3 per cent but the volume of imports rose by 2.5 per cent, compared with June.
Export and import prices both fell by 0.6 per cent, compared with June.

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Your disagreement is with the data--I posted it because it is interesting and reveals facts about our economy that some may not be aware of.

You can also file a complaint vs. the website that presents the data if you think there are errors. Do you have any particular mistakes in mind? <_<

SNIP

Yes, I do as a matter of fact. It was your interpretation of net external debt which was raised by another poster who explained how non-doomsday factors can skew the numbers with particular reference to Luxembourg.

Would have been reasonable to have acknowledged the point.

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spent 40 mins trying to find the net external debt figures and failed. Is it because there are no details on what the external assets are worth? If someone has the figures we would love to see them.

Yes, I've tried before as well, for longer than that, and I couldn't find a summary of it either. It looks like a mess to me. Perhaps the government doesn't know? Perhaps nobody knows? But I am not familiar with the bonds market.

Anyone familiar with the bond market around here?

And would the gov. or the BoE know if private UK investors hold foreign gov. bonds? Or any other foreign assets? And would that matter in case of UK bonds troubles?

I mean, if the UK gov. were forced to pay high interest rates, but to UK residents, the money would remain in the UK economy, boosting aggregate income. But if this interest is sent abroad...

(I need more coffee.)

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Yes, I do as a matter of fact. It was your interpretation of net external debt which was raised by another poster who explained how non-doomsday factors can skew the numbers with particular reference to Luxembourg.

Would have been reasonable to have acknowledged the point.

If you go back to the OP you will not find any interpretation just the charts. My second post was a cut and paste of the explanatory material that the publisher used.

Again, if there is something you disagree with on the that website it might help to draw their attention to it as I am certain they would want to be aware of any errors, misinterpretaions etc.

Perhaps they would be willing to acknowledge the error of their ways and post same on their webpage?

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If you go back to the OP you will not find any interpretation just the charts. My second post was a cut and paste of the explanatory material that the publisher used.

Again, if there is something you disagree with on the that website it might help to draw their attention to it as I am certain they would want to be aware of any errors, misinterpretaions etc.

Perhaps they would be willing to acknowledge the error of their ways and post same on their webpage?

Come now.

Look a the title of the thread. The whole point of it is that the UK's external debt level is terrible, and net debt "not a lot prettier". And you added a scary face plus some comment on other currencies to the OP. A reasonable man would assume that you took NED to be a terrible portent: sounds like "interpretion" to me.

Come on RB - be the big man. Some poster took the time to point out why the UK's figure is so large so why not acknowledge that we all learned something?

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  • 259 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • Even
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      • up 5%



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