Eu Says We Must Let Thousands Of Indian It Workers In

[Scott Sando]

It is all one sided. Just look at the web pages for the Indian High Commission : no visa granted where an Indian is available to do the job.

Disappointed with Hague and Vinnie "Cable" Jones. But never mind, I'm sure they'll get a nice seat at the next Bilderbergers.

The Indians may be a bit behind in civil engineering, but the likes of Tata have snapped up Corus steel and Land Rover vehicles.

Surely there's now no-one left who'd do a technical degree at a U.K. university? 50K debt and a life on benefits.

Maybe the solution to all this is to learn the next major business language ....like Mandarin or Cantonese.

You won't be able to get a degree in england soon, it will only be thoses who can afford the tution fees I.E. the elite of the world. Good by middle class.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

It is all one sided. Just look at the web pages for the Indian High Commission : no visa granted where an Indian is available to do the job.

Disappointed with Hague and Vinnie "Cable" Jones. But never mind, I'm sure they'll get a nice seat at the next Bilderbergers.

The Indians may be a bit behind in civil engineering, but the likes of Tata have snapped up Corus steel and Land Rover vehicles.

Surely there's now no-one left who'd do a technical degree at a U.K. university? 50K debt and a life on benefits.

Maybe the solution to all this is to learn the next major business language ....like Mandarin or Cantonese.

I must point out to my brother in law that he is driving an Indian car, I am sure he won't buy a Raj Rover next time.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Mikhail Liebenstein

[alexw]

The thing is most european governments will be for this since they know that most of the migrants will head straight for the uk.

So the way to put the kabosh on this proposal without seeming to is to state that we'll sign up to it on the basis of proportionality.

i.e. that if the uk economy is 15% of the eu total we will accept 15% (+ or - 3%) of the indian migrants coming to the eu. And if germany is 20% it will accept 20% (+ or - 3%) of them.

It would sound very fair, and so hard to defend against, but ****** over the eu royally

[stormymonday_2011]

Trading British IT jobs for German manufacturing exports ?

The use of Indian IT workers is highest in English speaking countries. They are less of a threat to other Europeans who are to some extent protected by the fact that most of their internal business is conducted in their native languages. If you check out companies such as Capgemini you will find that they use thousands of imported Indian IT staff on their UK contracts but almost none in France or elsewhere in Europe.

Of course, the picture is always changing because corporations are constantly trying to drive down the wage arbitrage. IBM have apparently have decided that Eastern Europe not India now offers the best value for European outsourcing .

BTW the British government shares some of the blame for this situation because one of the main reasons that imported Indian IT workers are cheaper than their UK equivalent is because the the cost of housing them is not treated as a taxable benefit for the first two years (which is why so many are churned back to India after that time). Most other European countries restrict this to far shorter periods (ie 6-12 months). It is this exemption form Tax and NIC not the wage arbitrage that is now the key attraction of these workers in the UK. They are also allowed to claim a tax free subsistence allowance for the same period. Their principal salary is paid in India and taxed there. So in essence they live here rent free and have all their living costs met while paying no PAYE or NIC. I am sure that if all UK IT workers were paid in the same manner they would be equally competitive. All in all it is hardly surprising UK PLC is going bust

Edited October 9, 2010 by realcrookswearsuits

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

 IBM have apparently have decided that Eastern Europe not India now offers the best value for European outsourcing .

The only rationale for this is that there support can't get any worse than it has been.  When starting from such a low base, things can only get better.

[stormymonday_2011]

The only rationale for this is that there support can't get any worse than it has been.  When starting from such a low base, things can only get better.

Eastern Europeans have certain advantages for European outsourcing since many can speak other languages such as German as well as English.

I think it is also a smart move by IBM to avoid any EU wide protectionist blowback if world trade does collapse.

Edited October 9, 2010 by realcrookswearsuits

[MarkG]

Sounds good to me. Business gets access to thousands of low cost highly qualified highly motivated individuals to do the it work we need. Then hopefully we won't have to pay x billion for a simple database

No, you get access to thousands of inept hacks whose only motivation is not getting laid off, and then you wonder why you spent x billion on your database that's a stinking heap of flying monkey shit.

That's not to imply that there aren't thousands of inept hacks whose only motivation is not getting laid off in the UK, but I've never seen anything good come out of an Indian outsourcing project and good luck if you want support a year after it's complete because anyone half-competent who worked on the original development will have left for a better-paid job in another company.

[Fairies Wear Boots]

After having thought about it for a while, if politicians are going to implement this, are they going to build more houses, schools and infrastructure to house and service the expanding population, or do they think flippers chopping big sized houses into smaller units will suffice?

[Democorruptcy]

If companies can potentially make a lot of money out of it, it will happen, politicians are tools (Literally!! ) of big business not the other way round.

<<why not just expand the EU to cover the ENTIRE GLOBE?>>

I already find it amusing how flexible the description of the "EU" has become, but then again it's mainly a trading group, therefore anythings possible!

<<Or has the idea of trading with foreigners just been dumped out the window....>>

But that's the whole idea of this (Look loads of money in Country X, let's go get it!!)

Just look at some of the locations on the 2010 European Tour golf schedule:

Johannesburg, South Africa

Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates

Doha, Qatar

New Delhi, India

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

Rabat, Morocco

Suzhou, China PR

Jeju Island, Korea Republic

Shanghai, China PR

Sentosa GC, Singapore

Fanling, Hong Kong

If you have the money you can buy yourself into any party.

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/tournament/index.html

[@contradevian]

Great, another "free trade" agreement which is nothing of the sort, just more corporate management by the back door.

Well this is the problem. The country isn't run for your or our benefit. Its run for the real "bosses." The 10% that own 90% of the country. They don't care about your little house or job prospects, they just want an army of cheap drones which are good at following orders and indian workers will be ideal for this.

The sooner people wise up to this the better, then once the elite, is strung up, or hung drawn and quartered the better. I don't hold out much hope, as Xfactor is back on. Perhaps falling property prices and lack of easy credit and jobs might start concentrating minds again.

[Bloo Loo]

Well this is the problem. The country isn't run for your or our benefit. Its run for the real "bosses." The 10% that own 90% of the country. They don't care about your little house or job prospects, they just want an army of cheap drones which are good at following orders and indian workers will be ideal for this.

The sooner people wise up to this the better, then once the elite, is strung up, or hung drawn and quartered the better. I don't hold out much hope, as Xfactor is back on. Perhaps falling property prices and lack of easy credit and jobs might start concentrating minds again.

where will these new guys live?..will they be in t'urban areas op north?

[BuyInOxford]

Well this is the problem. The country isn't run for your or our benefit. Its run for the real "bosses." The 10% that own 90% of the country. They don't care about your little house or job prospects, they just want an army of cheap drones which are good at following orders and indian workers will be ideal for this.

To be in the top 10% you need only 800,000GBP in total assets, its more the top 0.01% that have the wealth thats difficult to lose.

[Charlie The Tramp Returns]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8051349/India-trade-deal-with-EU-will-allow-thousands-of-immigrants-into-Britain.html

Eu Says We Must Let Thousands Of Indian It Workers In

Why. I just ask myself why does the EU hate it workers so much.

You see they don`t hate their workers but are very angry with us the Brits, they say our heart is not with the EU when a

YouGov poll and other polls confirm this. They are fighting like mad to grab the rest of our rebate and are out to destroy all the dissidents in that grand sterile building called the European Parliament. One day the British Public will wake up to this Soviet Styled Socialist State. As one European Council Minister told Obama if you want to talk to Europe you phone me. Evidently Obama was not amused

Now boys and girls let`s have a rousing Jerusalem.

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

Whether you hire the Indians or the locals you get a heap of crap that doesn't work

with the Indians it's cheaper though

don't see why the locals are worried about the Indians taking the jobs if they are so rubbish.

No, you get access to thousands of inept hacks whose only motivation is not getting laid off, and then you wonder why you spent x billion on your database that's a stinking heap of flying monkey shit.

That's not to imply that there aren't thousands of inept hacks whose only motivation is not getting laid off in the UK, but I've never seen anything good come out of an Indian outsourcing project and good luck if you want support a year after it's complete because anyone half-competent who worked on the original development will have left for a better-paid job in another company.

[Toto deVeer]

This is a disaster for the UK.

Firstly, Indians don't speak French, German, Spanish, etc. They speak English. They are destined for the UK They won't be allowed into any other country without language proficiency.

They will be employed in large numbers by other Indian companies owned by Tata, Mittal, etc, that are based in the UK. Jaguar, British Steel, and on and on, you name it. India within Britain. This skills base will become Indian, not British. This is going to create a dependency for Britain's economy worse than suffered by a heroin addict. Worse than the US and China.

What additional access will be granted that is not already available within the WTO? None.

Has anyone here worked within an Indian company or tried to do business in India? Like trying to swim through molasses. Nothing to be gained. The regulation, corruption, etc is murderous.

Has anyone here direct experience of the fabled Indian IT worker? I have and they are about 1/3 as productive as a decent British worker. So what will happen? Slow unproductive Indian IT workers will be brought in a a fraction of the salary of British counterparts who have paid 30 or 40k for a degree, and will drive the salaries way down for the more productive workers.

Madness. Absolute madness.

[MarkG]

Whether you hire the Indians or the locals you get a heap of crap that doesn't work

Then maybe you should try hiring competent people rather than paying the lowest price possible and expecting them to be any good?

with the Indians it's cheaper though

No, because the managers will pay them less and then increase the size of their own pay packets and bonuses to suck up the rest of the money.

don't see why the locals are worried about the Indians taking the jobs if they are so rubbish.

Because while Joe Briton may have the satisfaction of seeing the project he was laid off from to be replaced by Indian IT workers completely go to shit two years later, in the meantime he's had to spend two years stacking shelves in Tesco and the manager who laid him off got a big fat bonus for 'saving money' and moved on to another company before the scale of the disaster became clear.

[Toto deVeer]

I have observed, in every country where these doors have been opened, the Indianization of business sectors. What does this mean? That the entire business sector eventually requires Indian workers in every company to communicate with other Indian workers to do business. These people then revert to their native tongue (even though they can speak English) in order to control the flow of business. The opportunities for fraud and corruption are unparalleled. And it is almost impossible to detect.

This is really bad juju.

[Blod]

My second cousin works for the FCO. Whilst posted at the high commission in a large Southern Asian country she was witness to the surge in student visas. If you look at the numbers you can see how they have jumped over the last few years. She knew that most of them will be working if they can and that studying is a very low priority. She was shocked at the story a while ago about fears of a shortage of kitchen staff in Southern Asian restaurants because of the huge number of students and indigenous young who could do this. The answer lies in what she found out which is that these posts are often paid with accommodation and other over heads included so that the actual true earnings are low and actually often only amount to pocket money. They effectively import cheap labour. It’s hard to be sympathetic as the restaurateurs often sack the staff if they ask for more and that forces them into low paid employment elsewhere. What does show from government returns figures is that a large percentage of these overseas students will never return. They provide a source of low paid labour which then needs shelter obviously affecting the housing costs.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Blod

[ccc]

Let's not be too harsh on the Indians. We all know who actually come up with these ideas and charge a fortune for being such geniuses ?

Clue 1

Clue 2

And they are not exactly shy about it either. See clue 2.

Edited October 9, 2010 by ccc

[Number79]

We have to let thousands in? That is nothing, only a hundred houses worth. Think we could get it back dated and count the millions already here?

[Blod]

We have to let thousands in? That is nothing, only a hundred houses worth. Think we could get it back dated and count the millions already here?

We'd not be able to do that as there are no figures as to how many are here. I don't see the logic in an amnesty either as we don’t have border controls to regulate the consequences of this solution. Boris Johnson’s use of this was a purely political tactic.

It's the immoral side of this that I can't stomach. :angry:

Edited October 9, 2010 by Blod

[Toto deVeer]

You know, when I read and think about stuff like this, it makes me think that Britain still has not made the transition from an administrative centre of an Empire to a stand-alone, self sufficient economy.

The UK needs to leave the EU and implement Australian-style immigration system.

[Frugal Git]

I have observed, in every country where these doors have been opened, the Indianization of business sectors. What does this mean? That the entire business sector eventually requires Indian workers in every company to communicate with other Indian workers to do business. These people then revert to their native tongue (even though they can speak English) in order to control the flow of business. The opportunities for fraud and corruption are unparalleled. And it is almost impossible to detect.

This is really bad juju.

Let them try that at my place. I understand and can speak some of their native languages (and French, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, German, Russian, Swedish and Japanese - this plus asset diversification should see me rather well placed). Maybe I can carve myself a niche as a linguistic code breaker when I'm taking time out from writing code. Time to add mandarin to the list.

I think this is all rather overblown, as someone with indian parents I've heard enough recently from their family over there that the cost of living in India for basics is now pretty damn similar to the UK, so the wage arbitrage corporations have attempted to indulge in is doomed to failure in shorter order than they might believe. The end game approaches, and my prospective Laplandic cabin purchase will allow me to laugh my misanthropic head off at the futile attempts of the crackpot governments to stem the inevitable and watch the sheeple buried under their debt fueled idiocy and apathy.

I'm English, but to raise a point, not all of the people who share an origin with those attracting the ire of the posters in this thread are the inept b*stards being portrayed here.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Frugal Git

[Blod]

You know, when I read and think about stuff like this, it makes me think that Britain still has not made the transition from an administrative centre of an Empire to a stand-alone, self sufficient economy.

The UK needs to leave the EU and implement Australian-style immigration system.

I think you’re on the money with that, years ago we used the territories in our empire for gain now we just steal their citizens. It always makes me shudder when I hear people say we must recruit from third world nurses and doctors, who the hell is going to look after their nationals? It’s just bloody immoral especially coming from the left.

[Toto deVeer]

Let them try that at my place. I understand and can speak some of their native languages (and French, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, German, Russian, Swedish and Japanese - this plus asset diversification should see me rather well placed). Maybe I can carve myself a niche as a linguistic code breaker when I'm taking time out from writing code. Time to add mandarin to the list.

I think this is all rather overblown, as someone with indian parents I've heard enough recently from their family over there that the cost of living in India for basics is now pretty damn similar to the UK, so the wage arbitrage corporations have attempted to indulge in is doomed to failure in shorter order than they might believe. The end game approaches, and my prospective Laplandic cabin purchase will allow me to laugh my misanthropic head off at the futile attempts of the crackpot governments to stem the inevitable and watch the sheeple buried under their debt fueled idiocy and apathy.

I'm English, but to raise a point, not all of the people who share an origin with those attracting the ire of the posters in this thread are the inept b*stards being portrayed here.

I've worked all over the world, and Indian nationals have always played an important role in my career, both as my boss, my mentor, and as my colleagues. I am not condemning Indian people, Indian culture or individual Indian talent. What I am concerned about is the collective effects of large groups of Indian workers.

But I have been shocked at the way certain countries within the middle east and Asia have been completely Indianized, to the point where one cannot do business without hiring Indian nationals. This is simply a mafia-style situation that should not be permitted to exist, but it does develop. I have also worked within Indian companies from time to time and collectively these companies work on the basis of cheapest, lowest cost. One company hires and fires hundreds of staff at a whim, and projects are always months past schedule. I have also worked within large IT contractors staffed by Indian IT workers and the productivity and quality has been appalling, compared to what I have experienced elsewhere. What most politicians in western countries do not realize is that within India a feudal, Raj system continues to exist in many regions and the attitude towards the workers is as that towards slaves. I am not joking about this or making it up. I've seen it time and again first hand.

What concerns me is the existence and influence of huge corporations like Tata and Mittal who would be able to bend legislation like this to their whim, and they will, no doubt.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Toto deVeer