Heseltine On Newsnight

[Authoritarian]

they already do pay a higher propoerion in taxes, are you on drugs?

But they also claim rebates in the form of rising property prices. The ones that have been pissed all over are those that work and rent, they get nothing and are expected to give up everything.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Chef

[Game_Over]

Mostly it's nominally private enterprise regulated by the central state, this is facism, not socialism.

They are both equally batshit but socialism it certainly was not.

The tories are equally authroitarian big state lunatics and always have been, they are just out of time and out of cash.

Bear in mind I am no tpro labour or pro tory I am pro truth and the truth is that no political party has ever reduced the size and scope of the state voluntarily, ever.

I note you add the caveat 'voluntarily' because the Conservatives are libertarians and will reduce the size of the state because out of all the political parties they believe in individual freedom more than any other.

We live in an imperfect world, so being pragmatic I back the 'least worst option'

[R K]

they already do pay a higher propoerion in taxes, are you on drugs?

Edit: Never mind.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Frank Sidebottom

[Injin]

The banks.

Already nationalised, in effect they just made it official.

[Injin]

I note you add the caveat 'voluntarily' because the Conservatives are libertarians and will reduce the size of the state because out of all the political parties they believe in individual freedom more than any other.

We live in an imperfect world, so being pragmatic I back the 'least worst option'

No, they will only go along with a shrinking state when they can't afford to expand it.

The conservative are not now, never have been and never will be libertarians. They belive in letting you keep your own money and then legislating you out of all the fun ways you can use it.

The labour lot believe in letting do what you like but then taxing you into atoms so you can't afford to.

it's very different, honest.

[BuyInOxford]

The idea that the tories are going to waft on down from a randian cloud and shirnk the state and leave you alone is crack smoking foolishness of the highest order. They never have, they never will.

On this we agree. The more money the government take of yours, the more they control your life, whatever the reasons maybe this govt have already told us that taxes will rise.

Though i do believe we'll have slightly lower taxes with the Tories then if Labour had a 4th term.

[Game_Over]

Right wing isn't anything to do with small government and personal freedom. Hitler was right wing and he head a totalitarian state.

I'm sure we've all seen the chart by now.

Hitler wasn't right wing he was a National Socialist

Big business backed him because they feared a communist revolution and thought that they could control him, they also realised that as a fervent nationalist he would make them rich by rearming on a massive scale.

The Army backed him for similar reasons.

If you want other examples of National Socialists study the policies of Sinn Fein, the SNP or the BNP - they all have very left wing policies because they need the votes of the working class and underclass in order to get elected.

[Authoritarian]

The other interviewee Ken Loach is exactly the type of lefty liberal that the BBC fawn over, he's stuck in the mindset of blaming the Tories for everything and as a result made it all too easy for Hestletine who accused him of living in a 1980's time warp.

In the end turned into 2 vs 1 with Paxman attacking Hestletine is fiecely as Loach was, I expect nothing less from our 'impartial' public broadcaster.

[Game_Over]

No, they will only go along with a shrinking state when they can't afford to expand it.

The conservative are not now, never have been and never will be libertarians. They belive in letting you keep your own money and then legislating you out of all the fun ways you can use it.

The labour lot believe in letting do what you like but then taxing you into atoms so you can't afford to.

it's very different, honest.

Compared to any other party they are Libertarians and Thatcherism has been described by many people who are in a good position to make an informed judgement as a Libertarian ideology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism

[hilltop]

The state grew so large than in many areas of the country it forms a larger percentage of the economy than it did in Communist East Germany.

Partly this was to fill the vacuum in jobs. That vacuum was the consequence of the failure of capitalism to create jobs as its supporters claim it does.

[Authoritarian]

Partly this was to fill the vacuum in jobs. That vacuum was the consequence of the failure of capitalism to create jobs as its supporters claim it does.

The reason capitalism has failed to provide jobs at the margin is because the state taxes too heavily thus making many potential business ventures unprofitable. When the state fills the gap they need subsidies which draw resources away from other areas of the economy.

It's just another example of state failure tbh

Edited October 7, 2010 by Chef

[Injin]

Compared to any other party they are Libertarians and Thatcherism has been described by many people who are in a good position to make an informed judgement as a Libertarian ideology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism

Thatchers libertarianism in action.

Put the frecking crack pipe down.

[Wahoo]

Hang on a bit - I’m getting mixed messages in this thread. Most here acknowledge that buying a house in the current climate is a crap idea; the arguments have been well stated. But surely it’s the excesses of the capitalist system that has resulted in over-valued properties and high rents. Demand exceeds supply in the property world - does it not? Pure capitalist economics.

And then, you seem to find socialism repulsive! Socialism results in secure low cost housing - does it not?

So where do you lot sit? The excesses of capitalism or meeting your desires of low cost houses through socialism? You cannot expect low cost housing under a capitalist system; particularly where land is a finite resource.

I thought Heseltine was succinct and kept his cool. Loach started well, then showed himself as the arrse he is. He even started to insult Heseltine imho. Loach is an old twaaat.

Do you know what I think? I think socialism is rubbish - lazy baastard take over. Humans have evolved on the planet and are happier living under a Darwinian system of economics. Trouble is, we are running out of resources to exploit - socialism is the ultimate answer - I’m afraid. Won’t affect me though, as too old.

[the primitive]

as far as I can tell, he does not hate the coalition at all, seems very pragmatic

Heseltine was the recipient opf the most cutting insult I have ever heard. Alan Clark, ex tory-MP, castle owner and all round cad, said the trouble with Heseltine was he had to buy his own furniture

quality

[Game_Over]

Thatchers libertarianism in action.

Put the frecking crack pipe down.

Given that Scargill was using the miners to try and overthrow a democratically elected government the above images are meaningless as you well know.

I am a peace loving person but if someone tried to rape my daughter and I hit them with a shovel you could show a photo of me in action and claim it proved I was a violent psychopath

But it wouldn't prove anything of the sort.

[Injin]

Given that Scargill was using the miners to try and overthrow a democratically elected government the above images are meaningless as you well know.

No, they aren't.

I am a peace loving person but if someone tried to rape my daughter and I hit them with a shovel you could show a photo of me in action and claim it proved I was a violent psychopath

But it wouldn't prove anything of the sort.

And clause 28?

[Authoritarian]

Hang on a bit - I’m getting mixed messages in this thread. Most here acknowledge that buying a house in the current climate is a crap idea; the arguments have been well stated. But surely it’s the excesses of the capitalist system that has resulted in over-valued properties and high rents. Demand exceeds supply in the property world - does it not? Pure capitalist economics.

And then, you seem to find socialism repulsive! Socialism results in secure low cost housing - does it not?

So where do you lot sit? The excesses of capitalism or meeting your desires of low cost houses through socialism? You cannot expect low cost housing under a capitalist system; particularly where land is a finite resource.

I thought Heseltine was succinct and kept his cool. Loach started well, then showed himself as the arrse he is. He even started to insult Heseltine imho. Loach is an old twaaat.

Do you know what I think? I think socialism is rubbish - lazy baastard take over. Humans have evolved on the planet and are happier living under a Darwinian system of economics. Trouble is, we are running out of resources to exploit - socialism is the ultimate answer - I’m afraid. Won’t affect me though, as too old.

There's a crucial element that has been glossed over though. In theory capitalism is freedom neutral: the ability to freely produce and trade shouldn't interfere with third parties as they're still able to go about their business unmolestered. Home ownership reduces net freedoms though as the owner ring fences off a piece of land and prevents others from then gaining access. This isn't capitalism, despite 'capitalists' claiming that they have a right to engage in this sort of behaviour.

[Game_Over]

Hang on a bit - I’m getting mixed messages in this thread. Most here acknowledge that buying a house in the current climate is a crap idea; the arguments have been well stated. But surely it’s the excesses of the capitalist system that has resulted in over-valued properties and high rents. Demand exceeds supply in the property world - does it not? Pure capitalist economics.

And then, you seem to find socialism repulsive! Socialism results in secure low cost housing - does it not?

So where do you lot sit? The excesses of capitalism or meeting your desires of low cost houses through socialism? You cannot expect low cost housing under a capitalist system; particularly where land is a finite resource.

I thought Heseltine was succinct and kept his cool. Loach started well, then showed himself as the arrse he is. He even started to insult Heseltine imho. Loach is an old twaaat.

Do you know what I think? I think socialism is rubbish - lazy baastard take over. Humans have evolved on the planet and are happier living under a Darwinian system of economics. Trouble is, we are running out of resources to exploit - socialism is the ultimate answer - I’m afraid. Won’t affect me though, as too old.

Socialism results in housing built for the masses that the people designing them would never live in, in a million years.

The free market could provide affordable, good quality housing - but we don't have a free market in housing because the state entirely controls what can be built and where it can be built.

If all planning controls were removed there would be millions of houses built by the free market in a handful of years.

[Injin]

Socialism results in housing built for the masses that the people designing them would never live in, in a million years.

The free market could provide affordable, good quality housing - but we don't have a free market in housing because the state entirely controls what can be built and where it can be built.

If all planning controls were removed there would be millions of houses built by the free market in a handful of years.

Yes, there would.

Don't hold your breath waiting for the tories to give you one.

Oh, actually, you can crack on.

[1929crash]

Say what you like about labour, they weren't in any way shape or form left wing.

+1

[Game_Over]

No, they aren't.

And clause 28?

Yes they are

And as to clause 28

Because it did not create a criminal offence, no prosecution was ever brought under this provision, but its existence caused many groups to close or limit their activities or self-censor. For example, a number of lesbian, gay and bisexual student support groups in schools and colleges across Britain were closed due to fears by council legal staff that they could breach the Act

If I am forced by the state to send my kids to school then I do not expect my kids to be politically indoctrinated while they are at school

I expect them to be educated not brainwashed.

[Liquid Goldfish]

I greatly enjoyed this spat last night, great fun, a throwback to the 1980s

Nice to see genuine passion from both participants

[Injin]

Yes they are

And as to clause 28

Because it did not create a criminal offence, no prosecution was ever brought under this provision, but its existence caused many groups to close or limit their activities or self-censor. For example, a number of lesbian, gay and bisexual student support groups in schools and colleges across Britain were closed due to fears by council legal staff that they could breach the Act

If I am forced by the state to send my kids to school then I do not expect my kids to be politically indoctrinated while they are at school

I expect them to be educated not brainwashed.

If you are forced to send your kids to school it's not going to be by fecking libertarians!

[Game_Over]

Yes, there would.

Don't hold your breath waiting for the tories to give you one.

Oh, actually, you can crack on.

Thanks to Mrs Thatcher I own a five bedroomed detached one - all paid for.

And thanks to Nu Labour I haven't worked for 6 years.

Suck on that.

[Goat]

+1

-1

The genius of new labour was to hide old school tax and spend behind a veneer of conservatism.

That's why they were able to cause so much damage.