Heseltine On Newsnight

[smiffy1967]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00v8gs7/Newsnight_06_10_2010/

Paul Mason starts the article, Heseltine is basically blamed for destroying our industrial economy - the part on the top 10% owning 90% of the wealth is something that needs exploration

16.19 in

Enjoy

[Si1]

Ken Loach who was the other interviewee - straw men all over the place - apparently the reason that - yet again - the tories are cleaning up the mess left by the previous labour government is because the last labour government were actually conservatives, so it is STILL the tories fault.

[Game_Over]

Ken Loach is a complete tw*t

When Heseltine pointed out we had just had a Socialist government for 13 years and the economy is bankrupt AGAIN

Loach responded by saying that Nu Labour were basically Conservatives so the Conservatives were also to blame for the latest socialist f*ck up.

Where the BBC keeps dredging up these left wing loonies God only knows

Edited October 7, 2010 by Game_Over

[hilltop]

Poor old Hezza. He is such a good hater.

He hates Thatcher, he hates the Coalition and he doesn't like Camoron.

But most of all he hates the Labour Party.

He was spoiled for choice last night and nearly choked.

[Game_Over]

Poor old Hezza. He is such a good hater.

He hates Thatcher, he hates the Coalition and he doesn't like Camoron.

But most of all he hates the Labour Party.

He was spoiled for choice last night and nearly choked.

And who does Ken Loach Love?

Stalin?

Pol Pot?

Adolf Hitler?

Mao Zedong?

All good socialists and mass murderers to a man

Socialism is dead and buried but unfortunately left wing Zombies like Ken Loach still have a few breaths left in them

[Injin]

And who does Ken Loach Love?

Stalin?

Pol Pot?

Adolf Hitler?

Mao Zedong?

All good socialists and mass murderers to a man

Socialism is dead and buried but unfortunately left wing Zombies like Ken Loach still have a few breaths left in them

Say what you like about labour, they weren't in any way shape or form left wing.

[Si1]

Poor old Hezza. He is such a good hater.

... he hates the Coalition

as far as I can tell, he does not hate the coalition at all, seems very pragmatic

[R K]

And who does Ken Loach Love?

Stalin?

Pol Pot?

Adolf Hitler?

Mao Zedong?

All good socialists and mass murderers to a man

Socialism is dead and buried but unfortunately left wing Zombies like Ken Loach still have a few breaths left in them

Isn't your argument that 'socialism' caused the housing bubble, the banking collapse and the UK fiscal deficit?

If socialism is indeed dead, which appears to be the point that Ken Loach was arguing (though it was difficult to make out quite what he was saying with Hezzer ranting like a lunatic) then doesn't that suggest it wasn't socialism that caused the UK to be hollowed out with the exception of bankstering and the landowners flogging their land at a premium? Or am I missing something

Edit: As far as I can make out Ken Loach was positing that since it is the top 10% who have benefitted the most from the increase in land and property values, it is fair and reasonable that they ought to be the ones contributing the bulk of the reduction in the deficit - rather than the poor who have relatively lost out. Isn't that what this site is arguing for to? That housing wealth ought to be transferred from those that have it to those that don't? I'm not quite sure why this causes such a problem for the millionaire bankers on here - seems very reasonable.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Frank Sidebottom

[Game_Over]

Isn't your argument that 'socialism' caused the housing bubble, the banking collapse and the UK fiscal deficit?

If socialism is indeed dead, which appears to be the point that Ken Loach was arguing (though it was difficult to make out quite what he was saying with Hezzer ranting like a lunatic) then doesn't that suggest it wasn't socialism that caused the UK to be hollowed out with the exception of bankstering and the landowners flogging their land at a premium? Or am I missing something

You appear to have been watching an entirely different interview

Loach basically heaped abuse on Heseltine who remaind totally calm throughout

But when Heseltine suggested to Loach that his alternative appeared to be communism Loach accused him of making personal attacks.

People like Loach are just becoming parodies of themselves.

I'm all for having an opposing view, but the BBC might as well get someone from Rampton and ask them what they think.

[tinker]

Ken Loach is a complete tw*t

When Heseltine pointed out we had just had a Socialist government for 13 years and the economy is bankrupt AGAIN

Loach responded by saying that Nu Labour were basically Conservatives so the Conservatives were also to blame for the latest socialist f*ck up.

Where the BBC keeps dredging up these left wing loonies God only knows

I didn't know Ken Loach did comedy.

It is a pity that politics is tribal, akin to supporting a football team for some. Incompetence is incompetence.

There are lots of reasons (sadly) for manufacturing decline:

We are a high cost country (thanks to housing) making us uncompetitive

A move to services and especially finance (oh yeah, that golden goose)

Emphasis on 'saying and being' things rather than 'making' things

Globalisation and exporting manufacturing - and jobs, thus losing critical mass

Not putting our economy and what was best for it people first (too much short-term thinking)

Things may have begun under the Tories, the result of problems from the 70s... but Labour did not reverse the decline, they helped to accelerate it.

[Game_Over]

Say what you like about labour, they weren't in any way shape or form left wing.

They were classic socialists

Using borrowed money to create a vast client state of public sector pen pushers and benefit scroungers

and as usual the money ran out,

But not before they had milked the working classes to line their own pockets.

[R K]

You appear to have been watching an entirely different interview

Loach basically heaped abuse on Heseltine who remaind totally calm throughout

But when Heseltine suggested to Loach that his alternative appeared to be communism Loach accused him of making personal attacks.

People like Loach are just becoming parodies of themselves.

I'm all for having an opposing view, but the BBC might as well get someone from Rampton and ask them what they think.

Perhaps you could quote Loach's actual words that have offended you so much and which you don't consider to be reasonable?

Set aside Hezeltine's rant about communism and there being no alternative to globalisation because that's clearly just the ranting and rambling of an octogenarian. After all he started his position by saying that everything is a political decision - so he must include globalisation in that or else his argument falls apart (as it did when he resorted to going back to communism as a response to the top 10% who have benefitted paying to clear the debt).

[Injin]

They were classic socialists

Using borrowed money to create a vast client state of public sector pen pushers and benefit scroungers

and as usual the money ran out,

But not before they had milked the working classes to line their own pockets.

They didn't nationalise anything, did they?

Hand the means of production to the unions/workers?

Incompetent Authoritarian coporatists, yes.

Socialists, no.

[BuyInOxford]

Say what you like about labour, they weren't in any way shape or form left wing.

They socialised the banks debts, their spending is about to lead to huge tax rises 2 traits of a leftwing govt.

They certainly werent right wing ie small govt and for personal freedom and choice.

[Injin]

They socialised the banks debts, their spending is about to lead to huge tax rises 2 traits of a leftwing govt.

They certainly werent right wing ie small govt and for personal freedom and choice.

Right wing isn't anything to do with small government and personal freedom. Hitler was right wing and he head a totalitarian state.

I'm sure we've all seen the chart by now.

[EUBanana]

Just how frickin' brainwashed is Ken Loach?

You only see that sort of utter, unquestioning adherence in religious fanatics usually.

[Si1]

There are lots of reasons (sadly) for manufacturing decline:

the only overriding one is this - we in a post industrial society; manufacturing will continue to decline as an employer, instead done by cheaper foreign labiour and automation

and we will become all the richer for it

[R K]

"Top 10% own nearly half the national wealth, £4,000 billion"

Could the Thatcherites pls answer the question why it is unreasonable for those than have benefitted the most from the housing/asset boom to contribute more than the poor to paying down the debt?

Or is your only argument that Ken Loach is a f(cking lunatic commie?

Seems like a reasonable proposal to me

[Game_Over]

They didn't nationalise anything, did they?

Hand the means of production to the unions/workers?

Incompetent Authoritarian coporatists, yes.

Socialists, no.

The state grew so large than in many areas of the country it forms a larger percentage of the economy than it did in Communist East Germany.

Which is actually nationalisation by stealth.

[BuyInOxford]

Right wing isn't anything to do with small government and personal freedom. Hitler was right wing and he head a totalitarian state.

I'm sure we've all seen the chart by now.

Hitler was more a dictator then either left or right wing, i always prefer to put him on the left as he was a socialist.

We can argue forever what right/left wing means, but in Blighty the conservatives historically were known for slightly lower taxes and slightly smaller govt/public sector, and the Tories are categorised as right wing, Labour have created a huge taxation state with govt/public sector bigger then ever hence theyre left wing ..... though id say they were more then happy to shift the wealth from the poor to the top few percent so from this point of view youre correct. Whatever they were they certainly were confused.

[Si1]

"Top 10% own nearly half the national wealth, £4,000 billion"

Could the Thatcherites pls answer the question why it is unreasonable for those than have benefitted the most from the housing/asset boom to contribute more than the poor to paying down the debt?

they already do pay a higher propoerion in taxes, are you on drugs?

[Injin]

The state grew so large than in many areas of the country it forms a larger percentage of the economy than it did in Communist East Germany.

Which is actually nationalisation by stealth.

Mostly it's nominally private enterprise regulated by the central state, this is facism, not socialism.

They are both equally batshit but socialism it certainly was not.

The tories are equally authroitarian big state lunatics and always have been, they are just out of time and out of cash.

Bear in mind I am no tpro labour or pro tory I am pro truth and the truth is that no political party has ever reduced the size and scope of the state voluntarily, ever.

[Game_Over]

Perhaps you could quote Loach's actual words that have offended you so much and which you don't consider to be reasonable?

Set aside Hezeltine's rant about communism and there being no alternative to globalisation because that's clearly just the ranting and rambling of an octogenarian. After all he started his position by saying that everything is a political decision - so he must include globalisation in that or else his argument falls apart (as it did when he resorted to going back to communism as a response to the top 10% who have benefitted paying to clear the debt).

Getting the top 10% to clear the debt is Communism

Because these people would then cease generating wealth and in 10-20 years we would be living in utter poverty.

It is also very simplistic to suggest that this 'wealth' can be realistically tapped because most of it is tied up in assets which if sold to pay hundreds of billions in tax would result in an asset price crash which would wipe out the majority of this 'wealth' at a stroke.

Stealing other peoples money has always been an appealing idea to Socialists - but once you have stolen their money and p*ssed it up the wall what then?

The answer has always been bankruptcy and economic collapse.

[BuyInOxford]

They didn't nationalise anything, did they?

The banks.

[Injin]

Hitler was more a dictator then either left or right wing, i always prefer to put him on the left as he was a socialist.

We can argue forever what right/left wing means, but in Blighty the conservatives historically were known for slightly lower taxes and slightly smaller govt/public sector, and the Tories are categorised as right wing, Labour have created a huge taxation state with govt/public sector bigger then ever hence theyre left wing ..... though id say they were more then happy to shift the wealth from the poor to the top few percent so from this point of view youre correct. Whatever they were they certainly were confused.

They might have been known for it, but they never actually did it.

The idea that the tories are going to waft on down from a randian cloud and shirnk the state and leave you alone is crack smoking foolishness of the highest order. They never have, they never will.