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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/06/AR2010100607245.html

Millions of U.S. mortgages have been shuttled around the global financial system - sold and resold by firms - without the documents that traditionally prove who legally owns the loans. Now, as many of these loans have fallen into default and banks have sought to seize homes, judges around the country have increasingly ruled that lenders had no right to foreclose, because they lacked clear title

As per topic sub-title: why isn't this happening here?

Or, is it?

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It's difficult to know why this is happening over there. Don't they have a US Land Registry, where land ownership is recorded?

Land ownership in the UK is recorded. The owner would be the person who bought the property, with the bank the mortgage was taken out with.. Nationwide, Halifx etc listed as having first charge against the property.

The bank may then sell the loan on, but the Land Registry wont be updated to reflect that.

Thatnks to securitisation and repackaging, the loan may well be broken up and owned by several banks/funds.

To keep the land registry up to date with all the 1st, 2nd and 3rd charges on all the properties would be a monumental task and add huge costs.. you'de probably need to add an extra 1% to the interest rate to cover it.

None of the banks were bothered as they all planned to sell the bonds on to a greater fool long before any of the borrowers defaulted.

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Isn't it the case in the US that there are doubts about the ownership of the loans rather than the house? I.e. they know whose name is on the house deeds (just as here) and who that person took out the loan with originally, but they don't know exactly who that person owes the money to now, today, after all the paper shuffling.

Why couldn't that happen here?

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Isn't it the case in the US that there are doubts about the ownership of the loans rather than the house? I.e. they know whose name is on the house deeds (just as here) and who that person took out the loan with originally, but they don't know exactly who that person owes the money to now, today, after all the paper shuffling.

Why couldn't that happen here?

No reason.

I think it's just that people aren't asking yet, what with all the support they've had to keep them in their 12 trillion pound 1 bed shitbox flat and everything.

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Isn't it the case in the US that there are doubts about the ownership of the loans rather than the house? I.e. they know whose name is on the house deeds (just as here) and who that person took out the loan with originally, but they don't know exactly who that person owes the money to now, today, after all the paper shuffling.

Why couldn't that happen here?

Someone posted a link here the other day to a speech made by a member of Congress in the States.

In the speech he stated as plainly as you would like that systematic fraud is taking place in the States. Firms have been set up to create fake title documents for firms of lawyers which, in association with certain lenders, are using fake documents to foreclose properties they have never lent a penny on.

One example was given of a bloke who paid cash for his house, only to have it foreclosed a while later due to forged documents. Foreclosure hearings in the States take about 90 seconds apparently. This seems to be a major scandal and one of those things of which one finds oneself muttering; 'It could only happen in the States'

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Someone posted a link here the other day to a speech made by a member of Congress in the States.

In the speech he stated as plainly as you would like that systematic fraud is taking place in the States. Firms have been set up to create fake title documents for firms of lawyers which, in association with certain lenders, are using fake documents to foreclose properties they have never lent a penny on.

One example was given of a bloke who paid cash for his house, only to have it foreclosed a while later due to forged documents. Foreclosure hearings in the States take about 90 seconds apparently. This seems to be a major scandal and one of those things of which one finds oneself muttering; 'It could only happen in the States'

I presume that the bloke would be able to prove he'd paid cash - getting a receipt would probably have been a wise move - and would be able to wave it at the court officers at the foreclosure hearing or at a consequent appeals hearing.

Fake documents are one thing, but what about cases where people have actually signed their name on a loan agreement with Bank of X, and that loan has been sold on in bits to other organisations? Is there any way of deciding who can actually demand the money?

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I presume that the bloke would be able to prove he'd paid cash - getting a receipt would probably have been a wise move - and would be able to wave it at the court officers at the foreclosure hearing or at a consequent appeals hearing.

Fake documents are one thing, but what about cases where people have actually signed their name on a loan agreement with Bank of X, and that loan has been sold on in bits to other organisations? Is there any way of deciding who can actually demand the money?

Doesn't matter whether you paid cash or have a receipt - or anything else - if some b a s tard has forged a title document showing they have a charge on the property. You're in the ball game then where YOU have to prove the title document is a fraud. When you're up against a judge who wants to simply rubber stamp a foreclosure that's not an easy thing to do.

The other situation, where loans have been sold on etc. - who knows? My understanding of these things is that banks parcelled up mortgages and used them as security for loans, rather than actually selling them to someone else. So they collect the interest and forward it to whoever lent them money with the loan(s) as security. Must take a lot of tracking and managing - maybe that's why they award themselves millions in bonuses.

The s h i t s.

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Doesn't matter whether you paid cash or have a receipt - or anything else - if some b a s tard has forged a title document showing they have a charge on the property. You're in the ball game then where YOU have to prove the title document is a fraud. When you're up against a judge who wants to simply rubber stamp a foreclosure that's not an easy thing to do.

They'd have to have a loan agreement with your signature on it (could be forged, I know). I'd demand, or get my attorney to demand, that they produce bank documents showing a payment into my account and bank documents showing that I'd made at least some repayments.

Very few people would take a loan and not make any payments, unless they then scarpered, which is unlikely if they've got a house and they're trying to keep it.

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The US mortgage market is unique to the world, I believe.

Thanks to Franklin Roosevelt, for most people, mortgages are written against the property, and the property title is held by the lender until principal and interest are paid in full. In the event of a default, the lender has to go through the courts to foreclose (in at least in 23 states, but several other states are also privy).

This system is different from the rest of the world, where a mortgage is issued against the property and also against the individual. Whereas, in the US an individual can simply walk away from a property leaving the bank with the dog that is left, in the rest of the world the individual also has assumed liability for any deficit that occurs after the property is sold on. That is why in the UK prices are much more 'sticky' than in the US.

The US banking industry introduced an electronic system called MERS during the mid 1990's. But they did not do their homework on the legal issues. A lot of people claim that this system was a way to permit the banks to commit fraud, then lose the incriminating documents, but still claim title. It seems that this is catching up with them now.

This is a BIG deal. It could completely destroy the asset base of the major mortgage lenders. Nobody seems to be able to claim title. In addition, there are huge political ramifications in Washington, that are going to boomerang on the whole system.

The House and Senate have very quietly just passed a Bill 3808, which over-rules states rights regarding title and specifies that electronic documents are sufficient. It is an obvious ploy by the bankster lobby to overcome judicial oversight at state level. It is sitting on Obama's desk waiting to be signed in to law. This is a real political firecracker, and the elections are coming.

There is no doubt in my mind that the US is going to have a complete systemic economic collapse. The whole system is completely shot. They are going to have push the reset button, and it's not going to be very pleasant.

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The House and Senate have very quietly just passed a Bill 3808, which over-rules states rights regarding title and specifies that electronic documents are sufficient. It is an obvious ploy by the bankster lobby to overcome judicial oversight at state level. It is sitting on Obama's desk waiting to be signed in to law. This is a real political firecracker, and the elections are coming.

Thanks, that's intriguing

I've just googled a bit more about the bill whcih is called the "Interstate Recognition of Notarizations Act,"

It seems a congressman has ben trying to pass this bill on out of state affidavits since 2006 and originally it had nothing to do with mortgages. But the Senate weren't interested in it. Then suddenly last week it passed through both houses of congress unanimosuly without debate. Th congressman says he was a bit shocked when all of a sudden it went through on the nod.

link here http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6955YX20101006?pageNumber=1

Edited by oldsport

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My understanding is that if this issue cannot be resolved then a lot MBS based products are effectively devoid of content,since they were never properly processed- the buyers were sold empty boxes.

If so this will impact not just in the US but anywhere these products have been sold.

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Thanks, that's intriguing

I've just googled a bit more about the bill whcih is called the "Interstate Recognition of Notarizations Act,"

It seems a congressman has ben trying to pass this bill on out of state affidavits since 2006 and originally it had nothing to do with mortgages. But the Senate weren't interested in it. Then suddenly last week it passed through both houses of congress unanimosuly without debate. Th congressman says he was a bit shocked when all of a sudden it went through on the nod.

link here http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6955YX20101006?pageNumber=1

It seems that Obama is vetoing HR 3808. Shows how the terrain is changing in Washington. Wait until the mid term elections in early November. You'll see a much more hawkish government, and this will have ramifications for the conduct of the Federal Reserve too.

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It seems that Obama is vetoing HR 3808. Shows how the terrain is changing in Washington. Wait until the mid term elections in early November. You'll see a much more hawkish government, and this will have ramifications for the conduct of the Federal Reserve too.

Fantastic if he vetoes and these cases get legs

One confusing thing is that in the WP article it says Congress is going to hold hearings into the problem, but on the other hand they've unanimously passed this Bill. What's goign on?

EDIT quoteƔbout him not signign it

The Wall Street Journal reports that the president will not formally veto the bill, but instead will send the legislation back to Congress using the "pocket veto" process.

The White House issued a statement that said, "We need to think through the intended and unintended consequences of this bill on consumer protections, especially in light of the recent developments with mortgage processors. The authors of this bill no doubt had the best intentions in mind when trying to remove impediments to interstate commerce. We will work with them and other leaders in Congress to explore the best ways to achieve this goal going forward."

Edited by oldsport

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http://www.washingto...0100607245.html

As per topic sub-title: why isn't this happening here?

Or, is it?

UK securitisation is more organised - the originator keeps legal title to the security and therefore the right to sue on it, while the bond holders take a beneficial interest ie. right/liability on profit/loss.

The issue was sued to the max after the 90s crash:

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2005/760.html&query=paragon+and+securitisation&method=boolean

But you never know what these weirdos have dreamed up since then.

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Fantastic if he vetoes and these cases get legs

One confusing thing is that in the WP article it says Congress is going to hold hearings into the problem, but on the other hand they've unanimously passed this Bill. What's goign on?

This is the dirty little secret that the banks and the pols have been hiding. It's far too big to lock in the cupboard, I suspect that this is the true reason for TARP...the crooks are trying to hide the most massive of all financial frauds in history and hope no one notices.

But this time it is even too big for the MSM to overlook.

Eventually this is going to bring down the banking system (and possibly the Federal Reserve too).

Nothing new here, The same frauds were perpetrated in the 1920's in Florida before. The Wall Street Banks securitized Florida mortgages and sold them on to Brazil, leading to the ultimate collapse of the Florida real estate market.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, with a significant number of opposition candidates possibly occupying congress.

Like Obama says, it's going to be hand to hand combat after the midterms.

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UK securitisation is more organised - the originator keeps legal title to the security and therefore the right to sue on it, while the bond holders take a beneficial interest ie. right/liability on profit/loss.

The issue was sued to the max after the 90s crash:

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2005/760.html&query=paragon+and+securitisation&method=boolean

But you never know what these weirdos have dreamed up since then.

Reportedly most of the large European banks bought these US securitized mortgages and The City, as I understand, were major traders of them. I suspect that the UK banks have a significant exposure to this problem, but I've not seen any data.

This is a sort of reverse of the 1800's long depression in the US where, initially, a great deal of money was lost world wide when a European proper bubble collapsed.

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Interesting article from the New York Times: "Flawed Foreclosure Documents Thwart Home Sales" http://nyti.ms/ccHJqX

The who US mortgage market just looks like a complete f*ck up - lend on any old sh*t and pass the problem onto the state.

Probably dreamt up by the same people who want a small state and tax breaks for the rich...

Andy

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Interesting article from the New York Times: "Flawed Foreclosure Documents Thwart Home Sales" http://nyti.ms/ccHJqX

The who US mortgage market just looks like a complete f*ck up - lend on any old sh*t and pass the problem onto the state.

Probably dreamt up by the same people who want a small state and tax breaks for the rich...

Andy

Surely the opposite. This is an example of supra-state institutions giving the two fingers to local laws, in an effort to make middle class professionals rich.

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  • 150 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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