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Injin

Public Sector Pensions Report Calls For Rise In Workers' Contributions

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/oct/07/public-sector-pensions-report-contributions

Six million public sector workers will have to pay more for their pensions, meaning they will take a de facto cut to their pay packet within months, after a government-backed review concluded that their contributions should go up.

Lord Hutton, the former Labour work and pensions secretary who was asked by the government to conduct the inquiry, also recommends raising the retirement age for public sector pensions in the longer term and ending the "inherently unfair" final salary schemes.

The chancellor, George Osborne, will now have to decide how much more doctors, nurses, teachers and council workers will have to pay, with a decision expected in the comprehensive spending review on 20 October.

Hutton does not recommend introducing pension contributions for the armed forces, who currently pay nothing into their schemes.

The report describes how some public sector schemes date back 200 years and are now completely out of step with 21st century demographics, with many people now spending 40% of their life in retirement.

But Hutton also says it is "wrong" to describe public sector pensions as "gold plated" – the average pension paid is £7,800 a year.

The report says that the only way to raise money in the short term is to raise contributions, but in the longer term the final salary schemes must go and the pensionable retirement age must be revisited. Hutton recommends that the lowest earners should not have to pay the increased contributions.

He told Radio 4's Today programme: "I think we've created a very unhealthy divide. Current public sector workers can retire at 60, new entrants retire at 65. I personally feel very uncomfortable at the fact of retiring at 60 when I know my children will have to work to 65.

"They [final salary schemes] are fundamentally unfair, fundamentally unfair to the vast majority who work in the public sector and can lead to high flyers getting almost twice as much back in pensions than those on more modest earnings for the same amount of pension contributions."

"It is also acts as a barrier to free movement of employees from the public to private sector. The case for reform is clear."

"But it is wrong to say that public service pensions are gold-plated. The average pension paid to pensioner members is about £7,800 a year. About half of pensioners receive less than £5,600 a year. And 90% of pensioners receive less than £17,000 a year. "Although these figures are partly accounted for by part time or part career working these pensions provide a modest – not an excessive — level of retirement income.

"I also reject the argument that the downward drift of pensions in the private sector is justification that pensions in the public sector must follow the same course. I have rejected a race for the bottom."

More comical denial of reality and made up moral arguments to excuse being flat broke at the link...

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Just seen some bint from the NUT/UWT on tv moaning about pension proposals, apparently she wants to make tax payers pay more and their descendants pay more to keep her in holidays when she retires. Ok, I made that bit up, but that's what it amounts to.

Fast forward to civil unrest and Labour back in 4 years. Bye, bye sterling.

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What annoys me is when they say that private sector gets paid more (exposed as a myth - recent data suggests public sector gets more) and when they say we should stand up for our tights like they do. Well, we create the wealth which they take from us, and we don't have one big private sector union to complain to!

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You haven't seen anything yet.

Just wait until tax relief is removed from pension contributions for all those earning more then the fabled £41,000 pa.

Those on £100k+ will effectively be taxed out of the system.

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A very lame and cowardly report from Hutton.

Pensions are the problem. What you need to do though is share the hurt. Abandon defined pension schemes for new employees, sure.

But you also need to give everyone who is currently entitled to a pension, a bit haircut. Especially those who have already retired, their pensions are over generous, and cannot be afforded. Yet somehow, this group who are taking far more than they contributed, seem immune to any pain.

If Hutton and the Tories cant sort this out, then we will be unable to balance the budget, and our currency will hyperinflate out of existence. Those pensions have to be scaled back to what can be afforded one way or another. Either it will be managed, and those pensions reduced, or everything will go out of control, and those pensions will be set to zero.

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A very lame and cowardly report from Hutton.

Pensions are the problem. What you need to do though is share the hurt. Abandon defined pension schemes for new employees, sure.

But you also need to give everyone who is currently entitled to a pension, a bit haircut. Especially those who have already retired, their pensions are over generous, and cannot be afforded. Yet somehow, this group who are taking far more than they contributed, seem immune to any pain.

Exactly, What current public sector pension recipients receive is daylight robbery (from 'future' generations, myself included). Yes, their contract setup in the dim and distant past was criminal.

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A very lame and cowardly report from Hutton.

Pensions are the problem. What you need to do though is share the hurt. Abandon defined pension schemes for new employees, sure.

But you also need to give everyone who is currently entitled to a pension, a bit haircut. Especially those who have already retired, their pensions are over generous, and cannot be afforded. Yet somehow, this group who are taking far more than they contributed, seem immune to any pain.

If Hutton and the Tories cant sort this out, then we will be unable to balance the budget, and our currency will hyperinflate out of existence. Those pensions have to be scaled back to what can be afforded one way or another. Either it will be managed, and those pensions reduced, or everything will go out of control, and those pensions will be set to zero.

Problem -

After such an enormous betrayl of contract, no one is going to work for you based on deferred payments.

Not good for a hard up state.

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Problem -

After such an enormous betrayl of contract, no one is going to work for you based on deferred payments.

Not good for a hard up state.

The contract itself was a betrayal of future generations though.

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The contract itself was a betrayal of future generations though.

The sort or person who will accept stolen money doesn't care about that.

They do care about getting gyped on "their contractual payment" tho, as the brick chucking will demonstrate.

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The sort or person who will accept stolen money doesn't care about that.

Well, they'd better start caring about that. I.e. the Public Sector workers should start caring about the rest of their fellow citizens and should acknowledge that the pensions contracts that they have are fraudulent.

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Problem -

After such an enormous betrayl of contract, no one is going to work for you based on deferred payments.

Not good for a hard up state.

Injin,

gotta disagree with you mate. The pensions contracts were promises made, with the cost of those contracts falling upon those who had no knowledge of them and werent even born in many cases. The real people who have to pay the burden of the contracts have the right to change them, as you would do in bankruptcy, because they are unpayable.

Bankuptcy is a risk you have to accept when working or signing a contract. It doesnt mean that all future work will stop.

And as those who will get the contracts changed are never going to work for anyone else ever again, I fail to see what the problem is. I think that the young, who have to pay for this, will actually be more willing to work, given that they wont need to shoulder so much of this unfair burden.

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The sort or person who will accept stolen money doesn't care about that.

They do care about getting gyped on "their contractual payment" tho, as the brick chucking will demonstrate.

Of course, there is chain of stolen goods - fence selling to fence.

If the Government decides to form a Public Sector Pension fund rather than spending the money today, who do you think might benefit by skimming 80% of the growth proceeds.

Again this is another hidden bankers subsidy that is about to appear.  Before they do this, they should cap all pension management fees by law to under 0.01%.

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Injin,

gotta disagree with you mate. The pensions contracts were promises made, with the cost of those contracts falling upon those who had no knowledge of them and werent even born in many cases. The real people who have to pay the burden of the contracts have the right to change them, as you would do in bankruptcy, because they are unpayable.

Bankuptcy is a risk you have to accept when working or signing a contract. It doesnt mean that all future work will stop.

And as those who will get the contracts changed are never going to work for anyone else ever again, I fail to see what the problem is. I think that the young, who have to pay for this, will actually be more willing to work, given that they wont need to shoulder so much of this unfair burden.

I don't think you understood my point.

The young, seeing the pensions of their parents and grandparents evaporate, will not be anything like as willing to accept pensions as part of the salary. They'll want paying now, in full, today so they can sort themselves out.

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Your all living in dreamland if you think existing pension entitlements are going to be changed any time soon.

They are contractual obligations. The government can pass laws to change them, however since such changes will contravene EU laws we have signed onto our own lawbook, and just be thrown out, WE WOULD HAVE TO PULL OUT OF THE EU FIRST.

Can any of you see the Tories or Lib-Dems want to pull out of the EU in a hurry? Or Labour for that matter? We will be exiting the EU when it fails compltely and breaks up, not a day before.

In the mean time services and benfits will be slashed to the core.

When the government talks about getting department to cut costs by 40%, and 30-40% of the department budget goes into the pension fund, a 40% cut means at least a 60% reduction in service/benfits.

We will se concentration camps for the jobless before we see existing retirement entitlements eliminated or slashed.

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Your all living in dreamland if you think existing pension entitlements are going to be changed any time soon.

They are contractual obligations. The government can pass laws to change them, however since such changes will contravene EU laws we have signed onto our own lawbook, and just be thrown out, WE WOULD HAVE TO PULL OUT OF THE EU FIRST.

Can any of you see the Tories or Lib-Dems want to pull out of the EU in a hurry? Or Labour for that matter? We will be exiting the EU when it fails compltely and breaks up, not a day before.

In the mean time services and benfits will be slashed to the core.

When the government talks about getting department to cut costs by 40%, and 30-40% of the department budget goes into the pension fund, a 40% cut means at least a 60% reduction in service/benfits.

We will se concentration camps for the jobless before we see existing retirement entitlements eliminated or slashed.

Or they could just, y'know, be paid in full with worthless currency.

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I don't think you understood my point.

The young, seeing the pensions of their parents and grandparents evaporate, will not be anything like as willing to accept pensions as part of the salary. They'll want paying now, in full, today so they can sort themselves out.

OK, then we all agree. This is what young people want, to be paid in full. And so does Hutton, who wants to abandon final salary schemes in the public sector. And so does the taxpayer.

All we have to do now is get on and do it.

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OK, then we all agree. This is what young people want, to be paid in full. And so does Hutton, who wants to abandon final salary schemes in the public sector. And so does the taxpayer.

All we have to do now is get on and do it.

How do you get policemen, firemen etc to work for you tho?

(The reason the pensions aren't being paid is bankrupcy, remember.)

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Your all living in dreamland if you think existing pension entitlements are going to be changed any time soon.

They are contractual obligations. The government can pass laws to change them, however since such changes will contravene EU laws we have signed onto our own lawbook, and just be thrown out, WE WOULD HAVE TO PULL OUT OF THE EU FIRST.

Can any of you see the Tories or Lib-Dems want to pull out of the EU in a hurry? Or Labour for that matter? We will be exiting the EU when it fails compltely and breaks up, not a day before.

In the mean time services and benfits will be slashed to the core.

When the government talks about getting department to cut costs by 40%, and 30-40% of the department budget goes into the pension fund, a 40% cut means at least a 60% reduction in service/benfits.

We will se concentration camps for the jobless before we see existing retirement entitlements eliminated or slashed.

Ruffles, none of us think contracts are going to be changed pre-emptively.

Instead the laws of maths that say these promises that can be paid, will eventually exert their force, and the contracts wont be paid. If that means our currency collapses Zimbabwe style, so be it.

Mind you, if someone had the guts to sort it, our nation would be far better off.

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How do you get policemen, firemen etc to work for you tho?

(The reason the pensions aren't being paid is bankrupcy, remember.)

Uhhh? Wot you talking about.

You offer a salary. Someone will want to exchange their labour for that salary. They turn up for work, you pay them every month. What is it I dont understand?

They just dont get the same pension that previous employees got. Same with private companies who have changed their pension rules, they are still able to hire in the market place.

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How do you get policemen, firemen etc to work for you tho?

(The reason the pensions aren't being paid is bankrupcy, remember.)

OK, having read again. With regards to bankruptcy, you can have a company that is brought down, not by its operations, but by its debts.

Remove the debts, and it is solvently trading again.

Remove the debt of pensions obligations, and the state can once again afford to pay those actually working.

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OK, having read again. With regards to bankruptcy, you can have a company that is brought down, not by its operations, but by its debts.

Remove the debts, and it is solvently trading again.

Remove the debt of pensions obligations, and the state can once again afford to pay those actually working.

And how do you get staff to work for you, once you've (very publicly) gone back on the contracts for all existing workers?

Except by offering higher pay now to make up for the loss of pension, of course.

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I'll save for retirement myself thanks, pensions are a load of ****.

Ta da!

See what I mean?

Pulling a percentage out of current workers pay packets whilst telling them they'll get paid later is going to be a complete non starter after this particular balloon goes up. They'll want paying now instead.

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And how do you get staff to work for you, once you've (very publicly) gone back on the contracts for all existing workers?

Except by offering higher pay now to make up for the loss of pension, of course.

Cushy public sector jobs? You have already answered your own question I see. I doubt you would even need to raise pay. From what I remember there are on average 25 applicants for each firemans job. You could take away some of the pension entitlement of existing scheme workers, cut the current pay levels, and they would still be queueing up for a job.

People understand something is wrong with public sector pensions. There might be a few moans, but if someone actually did cut them down to size, we would get over it and move on very quickly.

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  • 152 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
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      • up 5%



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