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Dave Beans

Could This Prove To Be The Beginning Of The End For Sky & The Premier League?

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And?

How is that any different from the old scenario where car companies said you were only allowed to buy RHD cars in Britain and not in mainland Europe? How, within EU law, can you artificially prevent anyone from buying a product from another EU nation?

Look, I'm not trying to defend it particularly, but the argument is that you're not buying a product per se, but a license to view the football game and as I understand it there is more scope in a license to add in bits and pieces so it only applies to one country or is time-limited etc..

The car thing was about the same car, made in the same factory, having a different mark-up in different EU countries. The Sky thing is different because its product is made for the UK only. If it also sold it in France, Germany, etc. for a lower price then I'd guess that would be similar to the car thing.

I don't really care as I'm not that bothered about football, MotD is fine for me most of the time. I just think this woman knowingly exploited a bit of a grey area and doesn't want to pay up. A bit like a non-dom 'minimising' their tax bill.

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quite.it's like publicans having to buy vans and pay ten times the price.

the sooner this happens the better.

then they may also look at the way I'm forced to buy socialist televisual from the BBC even though I don't use it.

Right lets have a free market where the only choice will be to pay 10 times the BBC licence fee for the privelige of watching Murdochs right wing propaganda machine.

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Sky's monopoly over football works both ways. Premier league clubs have got used to the millions flowing in, but what happens when Sky decides that they don't want to pay that much any more?

Such is their position of monopoly that they will be able to dictate the price to the Premier League at some future contract renewal simply because no-one else has the infrastructure to provide the service.

In the long run, football is fooked. I guess then the top clubs will break away and go down the Pay Per Game route, forming a Europe-wide league, and leaving the likes of West Ham and Bolton to a slide into oblivion...

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if she's shows a DVD,should she be charged more by blockbuster cos it's a public show?

Is it fair for that person to undercut Blockbusters by showing it for free to people who might otherwise rent it from Blockbuster? And what if they profit from it, maybe by selling drinks and snacks at the venue?

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Sky's monopoly over football works both ways. Premier league clubs have got used to the millions flowing in, but what happens when Sky decides that they don't want to pay that much any more?

Such is their position of monopoly that they will be able to dictate the price to the Premier League at some future contract renewal simply because no-one else has the infrastructure to provide the service.

In the long run, football is fooked. I guess then the top clubs will break away and go down the Pay Per Game route, forming a Europe-wide league, and leaving the likes of West Ham and Bolton to a slide into oblivion...

The PL have a monopoly on PL football, but Sky do not have a monopsony. Even without Setanta there are other buyers for the UK rights, inc the Beeb with their filthy license fee revenue.

As to the lay in the OPs complaints, "they're only in it to make a profit" what on earth does she think she's in it for? Perhaps she just invites her mates around to see the footy and give the grog away... or perhaps she shows the football to sell more grog and increase her dirty profit.

Pfft.

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The small pubs won't be allowed to win!!

Murdoch has a number of politicians in his pocket who will instruct the learned judges accordingly......

Did anyone actually think the Euro experiment is to promote the interests of the masses?

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The small pubs won't be allowed to win!!

Murdoch has a number of politicians in his pocket who will instruct the learned judges accordingly......

Did anyone actually think the Euro experiment is to promote the interests of the masses?

I don't think it's just the small pubs though is it? I know of a huge place in Leeds that regularly shows 2 or 3 Saturday afternoon kick offs. It is my new Saturday local. Although this weekend I also caught Sunderand v Man Utd at a small tidy boozer in Seaham. Never realised so many places show it and are now starting to advertise it blatantly..

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She should win her case.

SKY knowingly sell their product across Europe. THEY knowingly infringe the local copyright laws they are trying to use against this woman.

Think of expats in Spain, France, Portugal, Italy etc. Then add in the others. I read somewhere that SKY had about 750,000 subscribers outside of the UK.

I live in France. Why should I be obliged to subscribe to a local provider who has content in a language I cannot understand, when I can get it in my own language from another provider in the EU?

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I'm not forced to buy murdoch's output and I don't.

you assume they'd buy it otherwise.I know a few people who only watch sport at the pub.

you can't halt the tide forever,it's happened with music and films.there's more available for free than ever.if they cut the price,more people would take it.

Oh god, please not the free music/dvd argument. I've worked in the games industry on games that have hit number 1 in the charts (or at least top 10) and there is nothing more demoralising than spending 18 months of hard work, including at least 6 months of 10-12 hour crunch days and some weekends only for some freetard to rip it and make a free download the day after it goes on sale. It is stealing, pure and simple. If you don't like the price, or the publisher model, don't buy it - it really is that simple.

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Oh god, please not the free music/dvd argument. I've worked in the games industry on games that have hit number 1 in the charts (or at least top 10) and there is nothing more demoralising than spending 18 months of hard work, including at least 6 months of 10-12 hour crunch days and some weekends only for some freetard to rip it and make a free download the day after it goes on sale. It is stealing, pure and simple. If you don't like the price, or the publisher model, don't buy it - it really is that simple.

Agree with you on part of your argument. However, what this woman is doing is the equivalent of a customer buying your game in say, France or Greece, LEGALLY. Then playing it in the UK. You still get your cash. No theft has occurred.

If the "publisher model" is not to my liking, I have the right to challenge that part of the deal.Otherwise it gives carte blanche to all mega-corporations to squeeze out the small guy.

What gives SKY the right to sell their UK packages and content elsewhere in the EU but to start legal proceedings when the UK public wish to do the opposite?

I'd love to see the SKY argument kicked out by the EU, but think it's unlikely as the big broadcasters hold a lot of power. B)

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Agree with you on part of your argument. However, what this woman is doing is the equivalent of a customer buying your game in say, France or Greece, LEGALLY. Then playing it in the UK. You still get your cash. No theft has occurred.

Hang on, where are Sky selling these other packages, exactly? There is no Sky.fr for example. All that is happening is that ex-pats are paying for Sky *via the UK payment centre, at UK rates* but they are watching it in mainland Europe because they can pick up the same satellite there. So it's nothing to do with Sky having different prices around Europe.

If the "publisher model" is not to my liking, I have the right to challenge that part of the deal.Otherwise it gives carte blanche to all mega-corporations to squeeze out the small guy.

What gives SKY the right to sell their UK packages and content elsewhere in the EU but to start legal proceedings when the UK public wish to do the opposite?

I'd love to see the SKY argument kicked out by the EU, but think it's unlikely as the big broadcasters hold a lot of power. B)

1) They don't sell their product elsewhere in the EU - see above.

2) It's not SKY you have a problem with but the Premier League - they are the ones who sell off the rights for each country to the highest bidder. No doubt one of the limitations of those rights is not to show it in any country other than the one the broadcaster paid for. The EU have already looked into this, which is why ESPN have some of the Premiership games this season.

I am not a lawyer, but roughly speaking you have a right to challenge the publishing model if it is anti-competitive or monopolistic or exploitative, but not if you happen to think it costs too much. Otherwise, I think I'll take Aston Martin to the EU and demand they sell me a DB9 for £10k, ta.

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Okay, a pedantic - but important - point of law which I really wish journalists would get through their thick heads.

This case is NOT an appeal against anything, the ECJ is NOT an appellate court nor does it decide the outcome of the case.

This is an application requesting a preliminary ruling from the ECJ under Art.234 (actually it's just changed and I forget the new art number). A application for a preliminary ruling is made by the national court if it considers that it needs a point of EU law to be defined by the ECJ. Any Court may apply for a ruling and a Court to which no appeal can be made must do so. Whatever case the court has before it is stayed until the ECJ provides a ruling. The court then applies the ruling to the case at hand.

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F*** the Premiership.My team,Norwich City got relegated to League 1 last year and we had a great season,winning most games and watching a surprisingly high standard of football. Now we are 3rd in the Championship and again the football is good and entertaining.My only fear is that we will get promoted again,I would rather get to the play offs,knock out Ipswich Town in the semis and lose the final.

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F*** the Premiership.My team,Norwich City got relegated to League 1 last year and we had a great season,winning most games and watching a surprisingly high standard of football. Now we are 3rd in the Championship and again the football is good and entertaining.My only fear is that we will get promoted again,I would rather get to the play offs,knock out Ipswich Town in the semis and lose the final.

You still lost to Carlisle twice :) (once league, once cup)

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Is it fair for that person to undercut Blockbusters by showing it for free to people who might otherwise rent it from Blockbuster? And what if they profit from it, maybe by selling drinks and snacks at the venue?

What's unfair about people sharing with each other? Selling something which can be infinitely reproduced at zero cost is a flawed business model.

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Hang on, where are Sky selling these other packages, exactly? There is no Sky.fr for example. All that is happening is that ex-pats are paying for Sky *via the UK payment centre, at UK rates* but they are watching it in mainland Europe because they can pick up the same satellite there. So it's nothing to do with Sky having different prices around Europe.

1) They don't sell their product elsewhere in the EU - see above.

I think you are mistaken in your belief that SKY-BSkyB don't sell their product elsewhere in the EU. There are 100s of reseller companies, all selling valid cards. According to SKY, you have to have a UK address and bank account to buy their card and receive their "services". Clearly, they are turning a blind eye to this grey market. And with 750,000 plus subscribers overseas, it makes commercial sense for them to do so.

http://www.transplanet.fr/boutique/liste_article_cat.asp?fam=4&cat=252

and in English if you like:

http://www.tvcorner.com/product_info.php/products_id/273

If SKY were truly concerned about "illegal" viewing of their cherished EPL product (ie. viewing by a means other than their business model of segmenting countries and charging as they see fit) then they should be asking the authorities to close down all these EU resellers tomorrow. They could also use current technology to ensure only UK based viewers could view their content. That's simple.

The fact that they don't, but prefer to prosecute a pub owner in the UK, shows that they have more to lose in the UK where prices have been extortionate for years.

I'm not a lawyer either. But I'd advise the publican's lawyers to cite the 2 sites I've shown above and ask the SKY suits why they are still allowing these companies to trade, but wish to stop their client...........

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What's unfair about people sharing with each other? Selling something which can be infinitely reproduced at zero cost is a flawed business model.

But the cost to create before reproduction isn't zero. What's the solution, short of not producing in the first place?

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I think you are mistaken in your belief that SKY-BSkyB don't sell their product elsewhere in the EU. There are 100s of reseller companies, all selling valid cards. According to SKY, you have to have a UK address and bank account to buy their card and receive their "services". Clearly, they are turning a blind eye to this grey market. And with 750,000 plus subscribers overseas, it makes commercial sense for them to do so.

http://www.transplanet.fr/boutique/liste_article_cat.asp?fam=4&cat=252

and in English if you like:

http://www.tvcorner.com/product_info.php/products_id/273

If SKY were truly concerned about "illegal" viewing of their cherished EPL product (ie. viewing by a means other than their business model of segmenting countries and charging as they see fit) then they should be asking the authorities to close down all these EU resellers tomorrow. They could also use current technology to ensure only UK based viewers could view their content. That's simple.

The fact that they don't, but prefer to prosecute a pub owner in the UK, shows that they have more to lose in the UK where prices have been extortionate for years.

I'm not a lawyer either. But I'd advise the publican's lawyers to cite the 2 sites I've shown above and ask the SKY suits why they are still allowing these companies to trade, but wish to stop their client...........

Are you thick? Those are UK registered Sky packages being sold by a third party (at a massive cost increase!). They are sold & bought in the UK at UK prices. You are watching Sky, which is a UK-based broadcast channel.

The fact that you can receive it in mainland Europe is purely down to the fact that it's broadcast from a satellite that just happens to cover all of that area. There is no cheap technology you could use to stop that, even if you wanted to. It's no different to putting a Sky dish on your caravan and driving over to France or Netherlands and watching Sky there.

And again, Sky don't segment the countries, the EPL does by selling the rights to each off separately.

Edit: Apologies, I am getting too worked up by far. I don't even know why I seem to be defending Sky as I don't really like it, and don't pay for it.

I guess you could say the same about the Greek channel, right, i.e. it's bought & paid for in Greece but being watched in the UK? I think where that falls down is because it's a public broadcast, as opposed to a personal one at home, the laws or licenses are different. That's the grey area really. I can't see her winning though.

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Are you thick? Those are UK registered Sky packages being sold by a third party (at a massive cost increase!). They are sold & bought in the UK at UK prices. You are watching Sky, which is a UK-based broadcast channel.

The fact that you can receive it in mainland Europe is purely down to the fact that it's broadcast from a satellite that just happens to cover all of that area. There is no cheap technology you could use to stop that, even if you wanted to. It's no different to putting a Sky dish on your caravan and driving over to France or Netherlands and watching Sky there.

And again, Sky don't segment the countries, the EPL does by selling the rights to each off separately.

Edit: Apologies, I am getting too worked up by far. I don't even know why I seem to be defending Sky as I don't really like it, and don't pay for it.

I guess you could say the same about the Greek channel, right, i.e. it's bought & paid for in Greece but being watched in the UK? I think where that falls down is because it's a public broadcast, as opposed to a personal one at home, the laws or licenses are different. That's the grey area really. I can't see her winning though.

Nope, I'm not thick. :rolleyes:

If Sky and the EPL were really interested in complying with their terms of contract, then the EPL would have had SKY in court years ago to force them to clean up their act and monitor their subscription base more closely. But a hit of 750K subs would reduce the price of their new football deal, perhaps.

Where do the resellers get these 1000s of addresses from? They can't all be family and friends.

The fact SKY can be had in mainland Europe, all the way down to the south of Spain/Italy is due to BskyB deciding to transmit a footprint that covers all of europe. A smaller footprint centred over the UK would be best. It can be done.

No, what this current spat is about is that people in the UK are fed up being ripped off and held to ransom by a monopoly. I find the hypocrisy from the EPL/SKY breathtaking. No doubt many employees of these 2 companies enjoy watching the odd football match or golf event in a pub or restaurant when they are on holiday on some EU beach?

If the UK pub owner is guilty, then so are 1000s of bars in the EU. Shut them all down, in that case. The pub owner should agree to remove her Greek tv card once the costas have been cleaned up and not before. Should see her good till retirement, imo.

PS. I don't have SKY either. Wouldn't give them the money. The odd football game is fine via my PC. Not HD, but I still see the goals go in.

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...

The fact SKY can be had in mainland Europe, all the way down to the south of Spain/Italy is due to BskyB deciding to transmit a footprint that covers all of europe. A smaller footprint centred over the UK would be best. It can be done.

...

Fair enough, I'm not really that bothered so I'll give up.

Not sure about this bit though, either:

1) The satellite is shared with other EU broadcasters (which it is) and it only has one broadcast antenna, hence it has to cover all of the EU to broadcast into all of the markets it supplies. Only covering the UK is not possible in that case.

2) The laws of physics mean that it's not possible to restrict the broadcast to such a small area as just the UK. The satellite is so far away that the signal it sends out radiates out so far it's only when you pass the horizon that you lose the signal.

Well I guess you learn something every day: http://www.brymar.co.uk/info/Astra/astra_sky/astra_sky.html

Looks there is already a beam focused on the UK and that is the only one with free to air BBC and ITV. So yeah, surely Sky could limit the footy to that only.

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  • 191 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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