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i noticed this in a comments section on public sector strike threats:

if you look at the times education forum, under "unemployed and supply teachers", you will get some sort of an idea of the scale of overtraining and unemployment there is in education."Use your head, Teach!!!" as an anecdote, under 50 of those who trained found places to work and a further amount of those were on temp contracts. 39,000 qualified last year, whilst only 19,000 retired. The irony is that out of work teachers have now had the avenue of supply teaching cut off by heads hiring UNQUALIFIED STAFF. Make my day, go on strike. I am ready to accept less pay and be happy, I am willing to accept worse conditions, I won't moan, I'll be as good as any of you for less cost. There are lots of us out here scraping for our next tenner.

People in schools with jobs, those who oversee them, those who represent them have no idea. If the govt do a Maggie, there are plenty of willing workers to fill their idle shoes. I am ready to do your job tomorrow.

- SD (unemployed science teacher), Cornwall, 18/9/2010 13:31

any anecdotes to support this? in which case why the high salaries?

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There was a story in Wales this week that said that Wales can no longer afford to train people to be teachers when there are no jobs for them.

For years Wales has been training more teachers than there are jobs in Wales for them - the mentality of the past 100 years of Welsh people going to London to become Teachers no doubt and now - only now - are they realising how stupid it is.

I was talking to a teacher yesterday who has been downgraded but who still has the same responsibilities - she is lucky though as about 6 of her colleagues were made redundant a month or two back.

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My sister qualified back in 2002ish and never got a teaching post in Wales . Did supply for a couple of years but could never get a permanent primary-age post. In the end you sort of time out and its so long you can't get back in post. What a waste of time.

Edited by daiking

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My sister qualified back in 2002ish and never got a teaching post in Wales . Did supply for a couple of years but could never get a permanent primary-age post. In the end you sort of time out and its so long you can't get back in post. What a waste of time.

in that case current payscales are simply too high

this was a boon to those who qualified more than 10 years ago - got fantastic pay rises promotions etc against little competition

but it does seem a lot of people qualified for teaching very recently, too many

Edited by Si1

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in that case current payscales are simply too high

this was a boon to those who qualified more than 10 years ago - got fantastic pay rises promotions etc against little competition

but it does seem a lot of people qualified for teaching very recently, too many

At a social event last night. My friend's friend spoke of how she has no work even as a supply teacher ... and in the same sentence spoke of her new 'big house' (boasting with insensitivity, ignorance and arrogance all at once!) and how she couldn't bare to think she might have to share it with someone else (isn't even prepared to have someone else pay her mortgage for her?).

Inwardly I was not happy - I am not sure how I managed to hold my tongue.

With this over-supply of teachers why are we not starting to get smaller and smaller classes (better personal attention for our kids? [i don't have any children, but the question still holds]

Another Q: how on earth did she get a mortgage? I shudder to think!

Aidanapword

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in that case current payscales are simply too high

this was a boon to those who qualified more than 10 years ago - got fantastic pay rises promotions etc against little competition

but it does seem a lot of people qualified for teaching very recently, too many

I dunno, in her case I thought it was a Welsh problem in that a number of new unis and HE institutes churning out far too many NQTs /B. Ed. grads for the roles available.

It was a shame for her, having followed the mature student route after originally training as a nanny from school. A great deal of real experience binned by the profession.

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in that case current payscales are simply too high

this was a boon to those who qualified more than 10 years ago - got fantastic pay rises promotions etc against little competition

but it does seem a lot of people qualified for teaching very recently, too many

Yes lower the salary, that is your answer.to everything public sector.

Over training has hit many areas of the UK look at solicitors or barrister forums, it contractors , physios etc just about everything at the moment. The potential pay is factored in and explains the high numbers trained, it reflects the risk as in other industries.

Also a lot of people that train I am sure simply aren't up to the job as well as others who do get the jobs. If you cut the pay a lot of the good teachers won't go into the career.

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In teaching the higher salaries are often linked to length of service and not so much to how good you are - particularly in the first five or six years. At the older end there are loads of 50 and 60 something teachers, some are good, experienced and valuable, some are tired, cynical and counting the days to retirement. Headteachers struggle to get rid of the latter, despite wanting to do so to bring in younger fresh blood, fresh ideas (and at a lower initial cost).

The Cornwall science teacher would actually be able to get a job, but just not one local to where he/she lives. The shortages publicised a few years ago were simplistic - there was never a shortage of primary teachers in rural areas, nice market towns and leafy suburbs. The livelier parts of our cities will still be struggling to recruit and retain teachers, particularly for secondary maths and science. In Wales, the drive to train more teachers was derailed early on when it was decided not just to concentrate on shortage subjects and shortage areas (like in England), but to fund the training of thousands of generalist primary teachers. I used to a chair of governors at a Welsh primary school - any vacancies always attracted dozens of applicants from Caerleon - always had a good choice of good applicants, its just that there were more of them than vacancies and they would need to look wider afield (maybe even England).

It would be interesting to remove the teachers pay scale and let schools advertise jobs, job descriptions and salaries according to their location and circumstances - let supply and demand play a part (and I say that now, as a teacher who used to work in industry, before other teachers blast me).

And the link to house prices is:

Fewer couples can afford to both buy a house and have children - so falling numbers of children in working families means fewer teachers are needed. - except in certain sections of society where the state pays for the house and the kids, so those areas still need teachers.

Y

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in that case current payscales are simply too high

this was a boon to those who qualified more than 10 years ago - got fantastic pay rises promotions etc against little competition

but it does seem a lot of people qualified for teaching very recently, too many

Yes lower the salary, that is your answer.to everything public sector.

Over training has hit many areas of the UK look at solicitors or barrister forums, it contractors , physios etc just about everything at the moment. The potential pay is factored in and explains the high numbers trained, it reflects the risk as in other industries.

Also a lot of people that train I am sure simply aren't up to the job as well as others who do get the jobs. If you cut the pay a lot of the good teachers won't go into the career.

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..... The shortages publicised a few years ago were simplistic - there was never a shortage of primary teachers in rural areas, nice market towns and leafy suburbs. The livelier parts of our cities will still be struggling to recruit and retain teachers, particularly for secondary maths and science. I....

'Livelier', love the euphemism. A bit like 'vibrant'.

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Over training has hit many areas of the UK look at solicitors or barrister forums, it contractors , physios etc just about everything at the moment.

yeah, so cut all their pay, that's fair, that includes me.

Also a lot of people that train I am sure simply aren't up to the job as well as others who do get the jobs. If you cut the pay a lot of the good teachers won't go into the career.

so if everyone is poorer then precisely what alternative career do you think these geniuses would be attracted into?

Edited by Si1

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It would be interesting to remove the teachers pay scale and let schools advertise jobs, job descriptions and salaries according to their location and circumstances - let supply and demand play a part (and I say that now, as a teacher who used to work in industry, before other teachers blast me).

I understand that the coalition, or at least the tories, were planning to decentralise wages across the whole public sector like this, makes complete sense

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yeah, so cut all their pay, that's fair, that includes me.

so if everyone is poorer then precisely what alternative career do you think these geniuses would be attracted into?

I was a teacher moved to IT for an easier life, double the money and far easier to get promoted. The problem with this board is too many people discussing things they are a long was from understanding. It is too simplistic and people that I used to read and respect have disappeared to be replaced by reactionary folk whom would be considered troll on other forums. This site is dead, I only come on here to provide a bit of balance.

Well I'm at it and seeing as this might be my last post here. Nominal prices will fall for 6 months by maybe 10% then all the falls will be in real terms only, sorry but we were wrong.....

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I was a teacher moved to IT for an easier life, double the money and far easier to get promoted. The problem with this board is too many people discussing things they are a long was from understanding. It is too simplistic and people that I used to read and respect have disappeared to be replaced by reactionary folk whom would be considered troll on other forums. This site is dead, I only come on here to provide a bit of balance.

Well I'm at it and seeing as this might be my last post here. Nominal prices will fall for 6 months by maybe 10% then all the falls will be in real terms only, sorry but we were wrong.....

out of interest - what branch of IT, and where in the country?

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Test manager south west

fair play - does this play into the old problem (I assume) that cross-the-board teacher pay scales may be overpaid for, say, RE and Art teacher; but underpaid, ie won't attract the talent, for technical and other hard subjects?

Edited by Si1

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fair play - does this play into the old problem (I assume) that cross-the-board teacher pay scales may be overpaid for, say, and RE and Art teacher but underpaid, ie won't attract the talent - for technical and other hard subjects?

There's not too much trouble recruiting for any subjects in good schools, the arts teachers tend to be the better educators so it balances . The bad schools struggle to recruit in all subjects. The bigger problem is that it is barely a living wage unless you live in the north or Wales . I would have a greater degree of regional pay differentials . it is a far harder and more technical job than most realise. I would NEVER go back. Imagine preparing 23 hours worth of presentations to a wide range of abilities that you have to make interesting and then assess this weekly. This ignores the bad behaviour and paperwork, the hours are horrendous.

As always the root problem (ie living wage) is crazy house prices.

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The bad schools struggle to recruit in all subjects. The bigger problem is that it is barely a living wage unless you live in the north or Wales .

you can say this about 'living wages' right across the south of England for many other jobs, tho, surely. I know someone very happy teaching in Essex, however they got a £50k deposit from family to buy a house. But their salaries are rather good notwithstanding this little favour (!).

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in that case current payscales are simply too high

this was a boon to those who qualified more than 10 years ago - got fantastic pay rises promotions etc against little competition

but it does seem a lot of people qualified for teaching very recently, too many

If anything with more teachers to choose from, only the best teachers will be getting work and, as the private sector drones say, the best should get paid more. So, if anything, this should add to pressure for more wages for vital public sector work.

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If anything with more teachers to choose from, only the best teachers will be getting work and, as the private sector drones say, the best should get paid more. So, if anything, this should add to pressure for more wages for vital public sector work.

With over supply why would there be any need to raise wages?

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With over supply why would there be any need to raise wages?

Because there's only a set number of jobs, and thus if there are more applicants increasingly only the higher quality teachers get jobs. Higher quality people demand more money. Or are you saying children should be taught by cheap also-rans?

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Because there's only a set number of jobs, and thus if there are more applicants increasingly only the higher quality teachers get jobs. Higher quality people demand more money. Or are you saying children should be taught by cheap also-rans?

I am saying that qualified applicants should all be capable of doing the job, otherwise the qualifications aren't worth a jot.

If you are saying also-rans can slip through to teaching the review the teacher training system

At the end of the day, if you advertise a role for a price and you get more applicants than you need with tangible qualifications, why on earth would you need to raise the pay?

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  • 261 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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