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Bonfire Of The Benefits

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It's the Daily Wail, but if true the biggest change to benefits in a generation:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1316724/Bonfire-benefits-save-9bn-Duncan-Smith-wins-battle-Treasury.html

Millions of people on benefits are to have their claims scrapped and replaced by a single 'universal credit' in a move which could save up to £9billion each year.

The deal, secured by Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith after months of debate with Chancellor George Osborne, will see housing benefit, income support, incapacity benefit and other payments axed.

The system will also guarantee that anyone working will be better off than those on the dole.

Those who claim will be able to keep more of their benefits when they get a job or increase the hours they work.

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"The Institute for Fiscal Studies said the move, which comes into play in three years, 'could be one of the most important changes brought about by this Government'."

....why the long lead in.....?.... :rolleyes:

Edited by South Lorne

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The Institute for Fiscal Studies said the move, which comes into play in three years, 'could be one of the most important changes brought about by this Government'

No hurry then. Got to give all the fraudsters they claim scam the system a chance.

Nothing about the tax credits given to the wealthy workers.

Edited by billybong

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It's the Daily Wail, but if true the biggest change to benefits in a generation:

Looks good. Not quite a "citizens income", but halfway there. The basic premise "work should pay" seems to be in there.

Wonder if they'll dare to reform means-testing to count housing equity on an equal basis with savings to buy a house?

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There are no details about how the proposed 'universal credit' will work out there at the moment.

It sounds like a return to supplementary benefit and I expect there will be no contributory aspects to it - purely means tested.

The tariff rate of withdrawl may be set lower as a concession to the return to work idea but the main driver to work will be the very low rate at which the universal credit will be set.

It will probably start off 10% lower when introduced when compared the range of benefits it will replace and be eroded quite quickly by inflation.

Look at the history of poor relief from the 17th Century to now. It's the same ideas coming in and out of circulation every generation.

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....why the long lead in.....?.... :rolleyes:

I would imagine it's simply so they can get the administrative systems adjusted ready for the change. The good thing is it's going to happen before the next general election.

Although this is being sold based on reduced fraud and making it easier/more rewarding to re-enter employment, you can bet the changeover will be used to reduce many payments. Just like prices usually go up when a country changes currency, you can bet that an average individual's gross benefit payments will go down.

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I think this is a great idea, but I have some doubts about it.

Consider ..

... the cost of housing being what it is to rent or buy, particularly the circumstances of LHA with benefit recipients renting privately.

... how much the combined payment per individual (with or without dependents) can be in political terms.

Government cannot pay benefit recipients a sum that works out at equal to or higher than the average wage. I) there would be a massive outcry from average-earning workers, 2) there would be no incentive for recipients to find work.

But here's the rub ... especially when dependents are considered, just how many benefit recipients could actually get/find work that paid enough for them to cover their own housing and living costs?

IDS says they will still be able to claim some benefits so they are always better off in work. But if you are receiving a benefits package that works out at about £20K a year, and you go out to work for £13K a year, will you end up with a situation where your entire funding ability ends up being more like £22K? How is this just for those who earn £13K pa yet claim nothing?

Again, how far is this going to end up meaning the state subsidises low-paid workers to the benefit of business?

I think it is a good idea, but I just can't see how it will work in terms of housing cost. Even with the caps to HB and LHA, £400 a month is a lot of money for someone on average minimum wage.

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I don't know what the average time is for career benefit people to pop each child out. Though surely all they have to do is decrease that time by the same percentage of any benefit cut? If it's say 20 months and they lost 10% they just pop one out every 18 months instead.

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Will believe when I see it. Successive governments always talk about axing /cutting benefits - fbut for some reason the problem, grows and grows. I do hope this time is different.

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Looks good. Not quite a "citizens income", but halfway there. The basic premise "work should pay" seems to be in there.

Yep. Will take a long time to ease in though. Many decades of piss taking to be phased out.

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I would imagine it's simply so they can get the administrative systems adjusted ready for the change. The good thing is it's going to happen before the next general election.

Although this is being sold based on reduced fraud and making it easier/more rewarding to re-enter employment, you can bet the changeover will be used to reduce many payments. Just like prices usually go up when a country changes currency, you can bet that an average individual's gross benefit payments will go down.

They are doing it in 3 years time so that they can wait for the employment situation to improve before the change and the corresponding benefit cut comes into force.

Ofc when we have higher unemployment at that time than we do now....

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IDS says they will still be able to claim some benefits so they are always better off in work. But if you are receiving a benefits package that works out at about £20K a year, and you go out to work for £13K a year, will you end up with a situation where your entire funding ability ends up being more like £22K? How is this just for those who earn £13K pa yet claim nothing?

If your benefits package works out at £20K a year now, and would still be £20K-£22K with top-ups if you earned £13K, there would have to be a reason for that - kids/disabled dependents etc. If you're already in work and earning £13K and are in the same circumstances, you should be claiming the top ups that already exist, such as child tax credits, working tax credits, LHA, attendance allowance... If you did so, your income would already be more than £13K.

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They are doing it in 3 years time so that they can wait for the employment situation to improve before the change and the corresponding benefit cut comes into force.

Only a forecast from the previous government would have unemployment at lower levels in 3 years time!

I think we will be lucky if it's at the same level as today, it's much more likely to be higher. Let's not forget that the real cutting hasn't started yet - the spending review doesn't report until 19/20th October. By the time those cuts start to bite, we'll be a couple of years down the road...

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"The Institute for Fiscal Studies said the move, which comes into play in three years, 'could be one of the most important changes brought about by this Government'."

....why the long lead in.....?.... :rolleyes:

In answer to your question, it will take them 3 years to build a computer system to handle all of this I would guess. You cant administer something like this manually. It would take about 3 million people to do that.

This is massive though. IDS is going for it.

I am looking forwards to seeing the details. One benefit, not variable with the amount of kids you have, nor what place you choose to stay in, those are the sorts of ingredients I am looking for. They might take the edge off of it by giving benefits to those who already have a brood, but bring down the guillotine on new claims. Better still, bring down the guillotine on all claims if you ask me.

Mind you, this is going to hurt some people real hard. Some may be forced to go and work, and those who are using the benefits system to supplement their income ( and their are many who do this), are going to find it a little bit more difficult to pay the mortgage.

Any indication on what is happening to SMI? Surely that has to be something we can chuck on this grand bonfire too?

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One benefit, not variable with the amount of kids you have

What are they going to do? Send the larger families a copy of the bible?

As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, “This is a remote place, and it’s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.” Jesus replied, “They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.” “We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish,” they answered. “Bring them here to me,” he said. And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the people. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over.

The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.

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In answer to your question, it will take them 3 years to build a computer system to handle all of this I would guess. You cant administer something like this manually. It would take about 3 million people to do that.

....sounds like a juicy contract ....has it been awarded under strict rules for tender ..?....three years is ridiculous and sounds like a gravy train if this is the case... :)

This is massive though. IDS is going for it.

...the idea is common sense logic ....why should anyone be better off on benefits compared to minimum wage .... :)

I am looking forwards to seeing the details. One benefit, not variable with the amount of kids you have, nor what place you choose to stay in, those are the sorts of ingredients I am looking for. They might take the edge off of it by giving benefits to those who already have a brood, but bring down the guillotine on new claims. Better still, bring down the guillotine on all claims if you ask me.

....most people planning their lives know when to tie a knot in it ....'be prepared' and all that ..... :)

Mind you, this is going to hurt some people real hard. Some may be forced to go and work, and those who are using the benefits system to supplement their income ( and their are many who do this), are going to find it a little bit more difficult to pay the mortgage.

...some will be encouraged to work and claim under certain conditions but the current fraudsters should be stopped now.... :)

Any indication on what is happening to SMI? Surely that has to be something we can chuck on this grand bonfire too?

...thought it reduced from today..... :)

Edited by South Lorne

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This is massive though. IDS is going for it.

I am looking forwards to seeing the details. One benefit, not variable with the amount of kids you have, nor what place you choose to stay in, those are the sorts of ingredients I am looking for.

Me too - are there any such details yet? One can only hope.

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It's a great idea.

I've got a friend who recently lost her job and is horrified to find she's no worse off not working - what was the point in her going out to work?

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It's a great idea.

I've got a friend who recently lost her job and is horrified to find she's no worse off not working - what was the point in her going out to work?

Sarah, there must be many cases like this. Wages are being forced down in the private sector by international competition. If the wages of an Indian are a pound a day, and £100 a day in the UK, and they produce the same, the market will see to it that things change so that they are brought into balance.

Trouble is though, wages may fall, but benefits are never reduced. So in real terms, and comparatively to private sector wages, they are increasing. Particularly when you have a huge benefit, housing benefit and council houses and council tax benefit, that are linked to house price inflation, you quickly end up with benefits being worth more than what you would get from working.

Then you are in trouble, because if you are better off not working, then why would you? Any fool can see the problem though, if half of us as a nation stopped work, tax revenues would collapse, and the state wouldnt be able to borrow, and it would all go to Winne The, and something would need to be done. Not to mention how galling it is for those working hard in unrewarding low paying jobs, to find others who add nothing from society, larging it up on more money in a nice new flat. Lets hope they stop builders from building social housing too.

Three years is a long time to wait for this new system to come in. We can only hope that SMI is ditched, Child Benefit axed, and Housing Benefit reduced to the lowest 20% decile, capped at the average 20% decile for the nation as a whole, whilst we wait for the changes to be introduced.

Can the state survive that long though? The budget deficit isnt going to get smaller with increasing numbers of pensioners to be paid for. That is where an even bigger problem lies. The Tories need to go back on their pension promise, and raise the state retirement age to 75 pronto imo.

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What are they going to do? Send the larger families a copy of the bible?

Well I guess if you have faith in the Lord to provide, you hardly need a welfare state do you?

As for those of us in the real world, I think you had better do some maths. We dont have Jesus on the cabinet, there arent enough fishes and loaves for everyone, and it wouldnt be such a bad thing if some people went and tried contributing a bit to society. If there is one thing I would like to thank our Lord for, it is the Poles who have come here and put paid to the myth that there are no jobs to do. They have found them, and got on with it.

And before you think of me as an uncaring incosiderate person, I suggest you consider what would happen if the government cannot balance its budget? If we dont change things, the state will be unable to borrow, and it will be forced to balance its budget. If you want to see some real cuts in benefits, wait for that to happen.

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If we dont change things, the state will be unable to borrow, and it will be forced to balance its budget. If you want to see some real cuts in benefits, wait for that to happen.

...that will be the scenario if Ed gets in.... :rolleyes:

Edited by South Lorne

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...that will be the scenario if Ed gets in.... :rolleyes:

South Lorne,

try not to think that or say it, cos it could happen.

There will be 3 years in which these proposals will be under constant whingeing attack from do-gooders and spongers and human rights activists, and assorted lefties. The common thread that will hold them together will be an inability to comprehend basic maths.

A lot of this group will include ever more nervous liberals. It just takes a few of them to break, and the government falls, and then Ed Militaryband waltzes in on the promise of feeding the millions with his 5 loaves and 6 fish or whatever, and everyone wants to believe it, and those who can do maths dont want to do the maths in case they cant make the sums balance.

And then Ed gets in, scatters the IDS system to the four winds, and bang, the state blows up.

If that happens, pensioners will at best get food handouts, as will those on benefits. The NHS will only be able to buy the most basic of medicines, anything else and you will have to pay. As for school past 16, forget it.

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  • 261 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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