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Land Tax Gaining (Some) Political Space In Britain


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HOLA441

There are many, serious and persuasive arguments against such a land tax but you just wouldn't grasp them. The crux of the problem is that there is too much tax, government is too big and too expensive. That is why we can no longer compete.

You are completely on the wrong page.

Up to our eyes in debt we can only :

1) Reduce expenditure.

2) Increase productivity.

New taxes will destroy both of those.

Total level of taxation is a different argument. (Can't you "grasp" this?! ;) )

Next.

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1
HOLA442

What you are missing is that the price of land is in reality a (presently) privately collected tax and forms well over 50% of the total tax / cost problem. A land tax removes the need to tax elsewhere while at the same time reducing the price of land (a price which falls on production like a tax)

Yes, it takes it from general citizens and hands it to known psychopaths and genocidal lunatics so they can spend it on whatever they want.

Which will be lots of death and misery, obviously.

Doesn't fix the problem, will kill multitudes.

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HOLA443

If large houses become less desirable (attract higher tax)

Which means the land under them would have a lower price and so attract less tax

and small houses become more desirable (attract less tax), then it makes sense that competition for smaller houses would increase.

Which means the land value would increase and attract more tax, thus nullifying the attraction - leading to it lowering

link for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium

Edited by Stars
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HOLA444
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HOLA445

Suckers, when people talk about land tax, they do not mean INSTEAD OF they mean in addition to the current taxes we have right now.

For instance the road pricing scheme the government wanted. This was not to replace the current road taxes of various forms but to form a layer ontop of the current taxes.

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HOLA446

"What is there left to steal?" asks Gremlin faced extortionist.

Have you ever played a game called Starcontrol II? There is a race called the druuge where corporationism is absolute everything including sunlight and air belongs to the cartel which controls everything. If you have no job you are instantly put into the furnace.

The UK government can keep on stealing plenty, for instance, a manditory blood 'donation' scheme where everybody gives blood to 'help out the poor' which is then sold on the international money markets Children still keep all of their organs etc.

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HOLA447

Yes, it takes it from general citizens and hands it to known psychopaths and genocidal lunatics so they can spend it on whatever they want.

Which will be lots of death and misery, obviously.

Doesn't fix the problem, will kill multitudes.

The psychopaths already get this money, except presently it is pressed out of the landless serfs rather than from the rent collectors

Judging from your hysterical reaction whenever charging people for these STATE PRIVELIGES is suggested; this is a situation you appear to prefer

Edited by Stars
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HOLA448

Why not just charge 100% income tax, if we're throwing daft ideas out there! :rolleyes:

Why stop at 100% The Sengoku Jidai period had income tax at 150% the samurai would come steal all the grain they could find. They would also demand the sons to be conscripted as Ashgaru warriors (read suicide infantry) who would be ordered to throw themselves on the spears and shield the samurai from arrows. The daughters would be taken away and raped..

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HOLA449

I am very much in favour of land value tax coupled with reduced income tax. If LVT is introduced as an additional tax, i.e. without reducing income tax or if it is not sold as a means of avoiding income tax rises, then it's a non-starter for the general population.

Other than this, the most sensible argument against LVT, and the one which is most likely to get trotted out in some distorted form is "I have paid income tax all my life and now that I have paid for my house with the proceeds of taxed income, I now have to pay tax on my house. That's unfair double taxation, that is."

LVT does not work, HK has a LVT most people pay about £300 a year in income tax, many people on less than £1200 a month pay NO income tax at all, there is no VAT. But there is LVT which is very very high...

It just means that most shops shut and turn into 7-11s and ALL shops pass the high LVT costs onto the buyers of the goods. Years ago there used to be loads of tax dodgers called dai pai dong, mobile food cooking trollies, the government didn't like this as it dodged LVT. They are all moved into food courts and in the space of 10 years the food prices have increased at least 900%

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HOLA4410

Absolutely. Introducing LVT on top of all the other taxes makes little sense, if they were to implement it gradually and reduce other taxes at the same time it would starting changing the economy's price signals.

You're wrong if you introduce LVT ontop the British people will grumble but will do nothing about it.... They will happily jump onto the barrel on a regular basis love it deep and hard. We regularly get pink socks because of this!

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HOLA4411

The psychopaths already get this money, except presently it is pressed out of the landless serfs rather than from the rent collectors

Judging from your hysterical reaction whenever charging people for these STATE PRIVELIGES is suggested; this is a situation you appear to prefer

No, at present the money get extracted by landlords, which while not particularly moral, leads to stuff like over buying of BMW's and lots of unmerited foreign holidays.

Take all that money off them, fine by me.

Give it to Tony Blair and his natural sucssors and I'm going to call you on it, because it's completely ******ing mental.

Edited by Injin
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HOLA4412
12
HOLA4413

Similar to the 1% idea,(ok, yes, also not a land tax): Why not tax properties taking into account their size AND the number of people living there - the larger the ratio between size and number of occupants, the higher the tax. This would free up much-needed larger family houses with one or two people rattling around in them. You may argue for the granny who has lived in her house for 50 years, but quite often, these houses are in a state of neglect due to the occupant(s) being no longer able to maintain the property.

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HOLA4414

Similar to the 1% idea,(ok, yes, also not a land tax): Why not tax properties taking into account their size AND the number of people living there - the larger the ratio between size and number of occupants, the higher the tax. This would free up much-needed larger family houses with one or two people rattling around in them.

Why not? I mean, we don't want people spending their money on what they'd like do we? Plus we can send in the state-enforcers to evict these people with unnecessary space and allocate them to deserving hard working families.

You may argue for the granny who has lived in her house for 50 years, but quite often, these houses are in a state of neglect due to the occupant(s) being no longer able to maintain the property.

The b1tch! Who the f*ck does she think she is, letting her own property not be maintained for the good of the state!!

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HOLA4415

Similar to the 1% idea,(ok, yes, also not a land tax): Why not tax properties taking into account their size AND the number of people living there - the larger the ratio between size and number of occupants, the higher the tax. This would free up much-needed larger family houses with one or two people rattling around in them. You may argue for the granny who has lived in her house for 50 years, but quite often, these houses are in a state of neglect due to the occupant(s) being no longer able to maintain the property.

I know...whilst we're at it, let's tax poor people a bit more. Why? Because they are the takers. We keep having to give them help on everything such as subsidized housing, money because they're useless at everything and contribute f all to society. Tax the sick as they cost us. Tax the disabled because they're helpless. Tax the unmarried mothers, the breeders who have more than 1 child. Tax the criminals.

All I hear on here is tax tax tax

Tax is legalised theft. End of. You lot seriously want to tax somebody because they were astute enough to keep some of their wealth (out of taxed income) who bought with their money a nice place to live?

I really wish you lot could hear yourselves from time to time.

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HOLA4416

Total level of taxation is a different argument. (Can't you "grasp" this?! ;) )

Next.

Causes of the French Revolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_French_Revolution#Taxation

Peasants were also required to pay a tenth of their income or produce to the church (the tithe), a land tax to the state (the taille), a 5% property tax (the vingtième), and a tax on the number of people in the family (capitation). Further royal and seigneurial obligations might be paid in several ways: in labor (the corvée), in kind, or, rarely, in coin. Peasants were also obligated to their landlords for: rent in cash (the cens), a payment related to their amount of annual production (the champart), and taxes on the use of the nobles' mills, wine-presses, and bakeries (the banalitées). In good times, the taxes were burdensome; in harsh times, they were devastating. After a less-than-fulsome harvest, people would starve to death during the winter.

... looks a bit familiar.

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HOLA4417

Causes of the French Revolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_French_Revolution#Taxation

Peasants were also required to pay a tenth of their income or produce to the church (the tithe), a land tax to the state (the taille), a 5% property tax (the vingtième), and a tax on the number of people in the family (capitation). Further royal and seigneurial obligations might be paid in several ways: in labor (the corvée), in kind, or, rarely, in coin. Peasants were also obligated to their landlords for: rent in cash (the cens), a payment related to their amount of annual production (the champart), and taxes on the use of the nobles' mills, wine-presses, and bakeries (the banalitées). In good times, the taxes were burdensome; in harsh times, they were devastating. After a less-than-fulsome harvest, people would starve to death during the winter.

... looks a bit familiar.

Nowhere near starvation levels. Too many generous benefits and housing provision.

It is so generous here we have hundreds of thousands, sorry millions of people pouring in to help themselves to a free handout.

The system is total and utter madness.

Time to get tough, mean and then fair to those who are deserving.

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HOLA4418

Nowhere near starvation levels. Too many generous benefits and housing provision.

It is so generous here we have hundreds of thousands, sorry millions of people pouring in to help themselves to a free handout.

That will change very suddenly when the Eurozone suffers its first default.

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HOLA4419
19
HOLA4420

Are you seriously suggesting we will have starvation in Europe caused my monetary failure?

Even when communism failed and was proved to fail there wasn't starvation - there was temporary destitution.

...because there was a wealthier, still organised area that could have stuff taken/sent/bartered from.

Where are we going to get food from when it all goes tits skywards, the ******ing moon?

The thing everyone misses about comparing this crisis with other crisis is that all of those were ameloriated by having stable areas around to help out. The argentinians could use the dollar, for example. When the dollar and euro go....

Edited by Injin
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HOLA4421

...because there was a wealthier, still organised area that could have stuff taken/sent/bartered from.

Where are we going to get food from when it all goes tits skywards, the ******ing moon?

The thing everyone misses about comparing this crisis with other crisis is that all of those were ameloriated by having stable areas around to help out. The argentinians could use the dollar, for example. When the dollar and euro go....

Now not only is the Euro going to vapourize, so is the US $.

Get real, please.

In another age you might have been burnt at the stake for being a heretic.

No one will starve in the literal sense. I agree we as a country don't produce enough food to feed ourselves because we are over populated on a tiny island and all we ever hear being bleated about is build more housing on green field sites.

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HOLA4422

I know...whilst we're at it, let's tax poor people a bit more. Why? Because they are the takers. We keep having to give them help on everything such as subsidized housing, money because they're useless at everything and contribute f all to society. Tax the sick as they cost us. Tax the disabled because they're helpless. Tax the unmarried mothers, the breeders who have more than 1 child. Tax the criminals.

The poor wouldn't need these subsidies if the cost of living hadn't been driven into the stratosphere with excessive house prices. Reduce housing costs and a lot money that currently gets redistributed as benefits wouldn't be needed, if landowners want all these government subsidies they can hardly complain when others put their hand out too.

All I hear on here is tax tax tax

Well this is a tax thread, what are you suggesting, no government?

Tax is legalised theft. End of. You lot seriously want to tax somebody because they were astute enough to keep some of their wealth (out of taxed income) who bought with their money a nice place to live?

I really wish you lot could hear yourselves from time to time.

Tax isn't legalised theft when the person paying that tax would be doing so anyway. LVT doesn't mean any additional cost, it would actually reduce net costs as the overall tax burden lowered and houses became cheaper.

Anyway, if the astute person in question doesn't want to pay towards their state services then why should the expect others to pick up the tab? That is legalised theft.

Edited by Chef
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HOLA4423

Causes of the French Revolution (...) 5% property tax

(...)

I suggested 1%.

Again exaggeration and distortion.

To all the other posters, many flat / terraces dwellers already pay around 1%/year as council tax. I am just suggesting that the same rate be applied to all properties in Britain. No ceilings, no exemptions.

.

Edited by Tired of Waiting
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HOLA4424

This was discussed in a thread recently. As LVT is a land value tax and agricultural land has a relatively low value, by implication, the tax would be low for said land.

I know I'm replying to something several pages ago, but this is the first time I've looked in since I posted.

It is only relatively low, but I bet it adds up to a hell of a lot simply due to the size of farms. Upland farms, which aren't particularly well off anyway, would be really badly hit (but so would the likes of the National Trust owning half the Lake District, so the idea has some appeal).

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HOLA4425

Now not only is the Euro going to vapourize, so is the US $.

Get real, please.

So you are saying that both the dollar an fthe euro will lats forever and ever?

And this is a realistic position?

In another age you might have been burnt at the stake for being a heretic.

Which makes my position wrong..how, exactly?

No one will starve in the literal sense.

Why not?

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