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H M R C Proposes All Paychecks Go To The State First

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Great for them, they don`t have to wait a month to get their money, must save the Government a bit of interest.

The UK's tax collection agency is putting forth a proposal that all employers send employee paychecks to the government, after which the government would deduct what it deems as the appropriate tax and pay the employees by bank transfer.

The Government Pays You

If the real-time information plan works, it further proposes that employers hand over employee salaries to the government first.

"The next step could be to use (real-time) information as the basis for centralizing the calculation and deduction of tax," HMRC said in a July discussion paper.

HMRC described the plan as "radical" as it would be a huge change from the current system that has been largely unchanged for 66 years.

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No doubt the whole taxation system needs a complete & radical change, but will the Govt invest the cash ?.

Would you want your money going to the ir 1st, i would nt, if they cant do anything right now just think if they held your money you'll never get it.

Have you ever called them up most often you'll not get thru, imagine if you move house change bank accounts etc.. the hassle to you, this would be a frigging nightmare.

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When You Can't Tax Enough, Just Steal The Whole Damn Thing!

How much comment does this need?

Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs - the United Kingdom's version of the IRS - is proposing that all employers send employee paychecks to the government, which would deduct the amount it deemed appropriate and then forward it to the employee.

So what happens when the "deemed appropriate" amount is 100%?

I find this amusing, and instructive. It tells you exactly what government believes about who you actually work for and who owns your output.

Note that nations sell debt predicated on your willingness to submit to this crap, AND NO OTHER BASIS.

That is, the day you say "screw you!" to that sort of thing the government cannot sell one more bond - to anyone.

This little game over in the UK lays on the table what the truth of this matter is, and has been, for the last.... oh, since the 16th Amendment.

It has crept up on you a percent at a time, and yet here it is, and here it will be: Government has declared your labor THEIRS.

Wake up folks.

Dennigers little rant on this.

Luckily computers never make mistakes and mathematical formulas never fail...

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When You Can't Tax Enough, Just Steal The Whole Damn Thing!

Dennigers little rant on this.

Luckily computers never make mistakes and mathematical formulas never fail...

It's inevitable that payments from hmrc to you're bank account will get screwed up from time to time. People will then see the benefit of there only be one bank, the government bank. They will keep the money safe for you, invest some in a government savings account for your pension. Take the mortgage/rent payment for your home etc. They may even decline transactions you attempt to make, for your own good of course.

The future is bright.

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Relax, it's not going to happen, because they simply will not be able to get a computer system built to handle this -- apart from that nothing of that size they attempt ever works out, there also isn't the money available to commission anything.

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Relax, it's not going to happen, because they simply will not be able to get a computer system built to handle this -- apart from that nothing of that size they attempt ever works out, there also isn't the money available to commission anything.

The government will use a bulldozer to shovel vast amounts of money in an effort to prove you completely wrong.

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Relax, it's not going to happen, because they simply will not be able to get a computer system built to handle this -- apart from that nothing of that size they attempt ever works out, there also isn't the money available to commission anything.

It's a desperate plan to placate creditors, something to show that steps are being taken to get the money/resources in.

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this is perfect miss direction in action.

remember the government scheme to put a black box in your car and charge you per mileyou drive as your road tax? they then opted (to public pressure) to put 2 new tax bands in instead. this is what they wanted from the start, but if they said that there would have been outcry, but compaired to the other option it seemed like a good comprimise that the public helped put in place.

and its not the first time they did that sort of thing, missdirection that is

in the next few days they will say its the ONLY way to stop tax dodgers, but what people are forgetting is that it will only work for employees on PAYE, IE the only people who pay their tax before they get their wages, as they get it deducted by their employer.

it will not stop the self employeed being creative as (some) of them do now, it wont stop the CEO's etc declairing less and taking "bonuses/share options etc" instead of a wage

so what alternative will they propose instead of this scheme? higher taxes? a new stealth tax?

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Great for them, they don`t have to wait a month to get their money, must save the Government a bit of interest.

The Government Pays You

Wondering what HMRC accountabilities are if the monthly salary payment got screwed up and people are left without money to buy food?

I suppose HMRC will just say, tough luck.

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More made up rubbish. Is there a UK Tea Party group or something? The proposals are for a central tax database to calculate payments.

Edited by non frog

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A while ago i was discussing with one of my old lecturers that we are (were - labour?!?) in socialism, in that the government owned the means of production (owned a lot of the banking sector) - with this now popping up we seem to be moving at an excelerated pace towards communism.

Feck - we are going to be paid by our governement - have i gone down the rabbit hole...

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this is perfect miss direction in action.

remember the government scheme to put a black box in your car and charge you per mileyou drive as your road tax? they then opted (to public pressure) to put 2 new tax bands in instead. this is what they wanted from the start, but if they said that there would have been outcry, but compaired to the other option it seemed like a good comprimise that the public helped put in place.

and its not the first time they did that sort of thing, missdirection that is

in the next few days they will say its the ONLY way to stop tax dodgers, but what people are forgetting is that it will only work for employees on PAYE, IE the only people who pay their tax before they get their wages, as they get it deducted by their employer.

it will not stop the self employeed being creative as (some) of them do now, it wont stop the CEO's etc declairing less and taking "bonuses/share options etc" instead of a wage

so what alternative will they propose instead of this scheme? higher taxes? a new stealth tax?

There are personal liberty issues with this but, I think people are getting too worked up. There's a certain inevitability to it, the way employers currently have to process PAYE and payroll taxes in general is byzantine.

Personally, I actually favour a website where you just plonk the employee's NI number in and pay them immediately gross either by direct debit or debit card. The NI number is linked to a bank account (much the way businesses currently experience with quarterly vat) and the net amount is paid directly to the employee.

I would also extend this to self-employed and businesses etc. They could keep a business account and a personal account. When they want to make personal drawings they could do so through the same portal with their own NI number.

There are massive advantages to this and in a society in which multiple income streams are becoming the norm it would vastly simplify everything and lower a barrier to people becoming self-employed. It would give the country a serious economic advantage.

People on here seem to have been a bit brainwashed by Injin's pavlovian anti-state reaction to the idea. This is ironic considering his argument is usually that more people need to be self-employed.

A big problem is that the state we have is excessively large and so many are on the take and the make, to some degree, across society that I do wonder if the economy may be too dysfunctional to withstand everyone having to pay the taxes required.

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Wondering what HMRC accountabilities are if the monthly salary payment got screwed up and people are left without money to buy food?

I suppose HMRC will just say, tough luck.

There was a massive failure of the last government when they had the banking sector on its knees begging for a bailout to not have the wits to negotiate some serious quid pro quos.

The government should have secured an end to the bank's iniquitous charges for going overdrawn and bouncing payments etc. which cost them nothing.

We get the problem with our employees when there's some scew-up with wages that they have a dozen direct debits to go out the day after their wages go in and if they're not there they end up with a £20+ charge for each debit bounced - some of them will only be for a few quid for the monthly instalment on a TV licence.

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There was a massive failure of the last government when they had the banking sector on its knees begging for a bailout to not have the wits to negotiate some serious quid pro quos.

The government should have secured an end to the bank's iniquitous charges for going overdrawn and bouncing payments etc. which cost them nothing.

We get the problem with our employees when there's some scew-up with wages that they have a dozen direct debits to go out the day after their wages go in and if they're not there they end up with a £20+ charge for each debit bounced - some of them will only be for a few quid for the monthly instalment on a TV licence.

Well, the answer to that one is simple: don't be daft enough to hand someone a mandate to take unspecificed amounts of money out of your account on unspecified dates.

I can see where Direct Debit is going... to me, the concept is sinister enough already given the system is designed entirely for the recipient and not for the payer and offers practically no protection at all. It is simply a money making scheme for banks.

I suggested about a year ago that Direct Debit will become "attachment to wages" and you'll have to accept this to get utilities.

I can see how that could easily be put in place if wages go to the state first.

In order of priority in this country: state first, then corporates, then the people.

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it will not stop the self employeed being creative as (some) of them do now, it wont stop the CEO's etc declairing less and taking "bonuses/share options etc" instead of a wage

so what alternative will they propose instead of this scheme? higher taxes? a new stealth tax?

It'll affect those who went from s/e to running a small business too.

Presumably they'll make some arrangement for the s/e to have to give gross pay over shortly after though.

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This idea was proposed by old "Hairy Ears"* during the Callaghan years. The idea was to create a pocket-money society where the state received all generated wealth and paid the people a sum to reflect their needs. It almost happened when IT hit 98% and, in some cases, exceeded 100%. It was during the time when my parents went to live on the IOM who had a brilliant way to tax people: 20% no matter what you earned.

http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.images.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Ddennis%2Bhealey%26fr%3Dyfp-t-702&w=450&h=356&imgurl=www.johnlondei.co.uk%2Fgallery%2FDenisHealey300.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.digitalspy.co.uk%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D957006&size=30k&name=DenisHealey300+j...&p=dennis+healey&oid=620ab4c63c7d2096&fr2=&no=2&tt=186&sigr=11q8b8p9g&sigi=11f76v1ug&sigb=12tpn5hpp

_____________________

*Dennis "two farms" Healey. Some argues that the eyebrows were more eccentric than the ear hair.

Edited by Realistbear

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There are personal liberty issues with this but, I think people are getting too worked up. There's a certain inevitability to it, the way employers currently have to process PAYE and payroll taxes in general is byzantine.

So, the current rule is crap, and hence, we urgently need to replace it with something worse. :-D

Personally, I actually favour a website where you just plonk the employee's NI number in and pay them immediately gross either by direct debit or debit card. The NI number is linked to a bank account (much the way businesses currently experience with quarterly vat) and the net amount is paid directly to the employee.

Aww, so do the crackers and crooks. There are lots of people who would LOVE to be able to see your bank movements in real time, esp. competitors... And what happens if the entire thing gets broken or some reason? Then the entire country is broke with one stroke. Nice single point of failure.

I would also extend this to self-employed and businesses etc. They could keep a business account and a personal account. When they want to make personal drawings they could do so through the same portal with their own NI number.

We already do that, most of us have a business account and a personal account. However anyone who is handling cash will always find a way around this, no matter what you try to do.

There are massive advantages to this and in a society in which multiple income streams are becoming the norm it would vastly simplify everything and lower a barrier to people becoming self-employed. It would give the country a serious economic advantage.

Enumerate those advantages please? It's all very well to say those things and they sound nice, but I cannot see how this would work in practice, there appears to be no actual advantage at all, other than that HMRC now holds the keys to all my money.

And... are you sure that the simplifications you crave cannot be achieved without creating the Achilles heel of the millennium?

A big problem is that the state we have is excessively large and so many are on the take and the make, to some degree, across society that I do wonder if the economy may be too dysfunctional to withstand everyone having to pay the taxes required.

Thank you for making my point for me.

But maybe you need to see it the other way round: the taxes are way to dysfunctional and will destroy the economy in the end.

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This idea was proposed by old "Hairy Ears"* during the Callaghan years. The idea was to create a pocket-money society where the state received all generated wealth and paid the people a sum to reflect their needs. It almost happened when IT hit 98% and, in some cases, exceeded 100%. It was during the time when my parents went to live on the IOM who had a brilliant way to tax people: 20% no matter what you earned.

http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.images.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Ddennis%2Bhealey%26fr%3Dyfp-t-702&w=450&h=356&imgurl=www.johnlondei.co.uk%2Fgallery%2FDenisHealey300.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.digitalspy.co.uk%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D957006&size=30k&name=DenisHealey300+j...&p=dennis+healey&oid=620ab4c63c7d2096&fr2=&no=2&tt=186&sigr=11q8b8p9g&sigi=11f76v1ug&sigb=12tpn5hpp

_____________________

*Dennis "two farms" Healey. Some argues that the eyebrows were more eccentric than the ear hair.

So, the current rule is crap, and hence, we urgently need to replace it with something worse. :-D

Aww, so do the crackers and crooks. There are lots of people who would LOVE to be able to see your bank movements in real time, esp. competitors... And what happens if the entire thing gets broken or some reason? Then the entire country is broke with one stroke. Nice single point of failure.

We already do that, most of us have a business account and a personal account. However anyone who is handling cash will always find a way around this, no matter what you try to do.

Enumerate those advantages please? It's all very well to say those things and they sound nice, but I cannot see how this would work in practice, there appears to be no actual advantage at all, other than that HMRC now holds the keys to all my money.

And... are you sure that the simplifications you crave cannot be achieved without creating the Achilles heel of the millennium?

Thank you for making my point for me.

But maybe you need to see it the other way round: the taxes are way to dysfunctional and will destroy the economy in the end.

None of these points are valid. People on here either don't understand properly what's being proposed or are deliberately choosing to wilfully misrepresent it to feed their paranoid perceived freedom fight against the encroaching big brother state and its evil plan to enslave them.

As an employer let me tell you how it works at the moment. You work for me for a month before I pay you and you have to trust me not to run off with your money. Before I pay you that money I have to have a payroll dept to calculate how much tax and NI you owe based on tax codes etc. - which is a barrier to taking on staff quickly and easily.

I then pay your wages from my payroll bank account to your personal account. You then trust that I will hand over your tax and NI to HMRC which I'II make in a separate monthly payment.

What is proposed is that I submit the gross pay figure and your NI number to HMRC. HMRC then instruct ny bank to direct debit x amount from my payroll account and transfer it to your account and y amount owed to them and transfer it to their account.

There is no difference to what goes on now. The money stays within the banking system and the employer's payroll account. There's no additional element of trust to the situation than now HMRC is simply sending instructions to the banking system. For peace of mind they should probably do it as two direct debit instructions prioritising employee's wages - there is no way any further internal financial transaction data is exposed to anyone that isn't already.

Advantages are numerous. For one, employees won't need to extend employers a months labour on credit for the reason it's laborious to process payroll weekly. There's also a reduced risk of employee's wages not being paid if a firm goes bust and the money employees pay in tax and NI is going to where it should straightaway rather than being misused as a low cost credit line by businesses.

Edited by Soon Not a Chain Retailer

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None of these points are valid. People on here either don't understand properly what's being proposed or are deliberately choosing to wilfully misrepresent it to feed their paranoid perceived freedom fight against the encroaching big brother state and its evil plan to enslave them.

As an employer let me tell you how it works at the moment. You work for me for a month before I pay you and you have to trust me not to run off with your money. Before I pay you that money I have to have a payroll dept to calculate how much tax and NI you owe based on tax codes etc. - which is a barrier to taking on staff quickly and easily.

I then pay your wages from my payroll bank account to your personal account. You then trust that I will hand over your tax and NI to HMRC which I'II make in a separate monthly payment.

What is proposed is that I submit the gross pay figure and your NI number to HMRC. HMRC then instruct ny bank to direct debit x amount from my payroll account and transfer it to your account and y amount owed to them and transfer it to their account.

There is no difference to what goes on now. The money stays within the banking system and the employer's payroll account. There's no additional element of trust to the situation than now HMRC is simply sending instructions to the banking system. For peace of mind they should probably do it as two direct debit instructions prioritising employee's wages - there is no way any further internal financial transaction data is exposed to anyone that isn't already.

Advantages are numerous. For one, employees won't need to extend employers a months labour on credit for the reason it's laborious to process payroll weekly. There's also a reduced risk of employee's wages not being paid if a firm goes bust and the money employees pay in tax and NI is going to where it should straightaway rather than being misused as a low cost credit line by businesses.

I can see some advantage in this, if done properly.

However, from my expeirence with HMRC software system, I think you might find that you will be tearing your hair accessing their payment website/system. There is certainly no feeling of taking ownership of a problem when I last ring up HMRC IT support regarding their online softwares.

Further, not sure if it can handle flexible payments, bonuses, early Christmas payments etc.

Edited by easybetman

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I can see some advantage in this, if done properly.

However, from my expeirence with HMRC software system, I think you might find that you will be tearing your hair accessing their payment website/system. There is certainly no feeling of taking ownership of a problem when I last ring up HMRC IT support regarding their online softwares.

Further, not sure if it can handle flexible payments, bonuses, early Christmas payments etc.

Can you imagine trying to sort out any errors? Probably having "customers" phoning premium rate numbers to discourage them from questioning the "computer" which says "no". It ties in nicely with a country where people are now guilty until proven innocent.

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I can see some advantage in this, if done properly.

However, from my expeirence with HMRC software system, I think you might find that you will be tearing your hair accessing their payment website/system. There is certainly no feeling of taking ownership of a problem when I last ring up HMRC IT support regarding their online softwares.

Further, not sure if it can handle flexible payments, bonuses, early Christmas payments etc.

Probably unfeasible without a complete overhaul of far too complex tax system. Would favour a flat rate but I doubt you could push it through and get re-elected or without a more left of centre govt replacing it.

Clearly PAYE and NI all going effectively into the same pot but calculated differently is bonkers. Also things like employer's NI contribution which is still really a tax on employees as it all comes out of a company's wage budget regardless what name it's given. On top of that there's all kinds of things like tax codes with an allowance for washing your staff uniform at home which still, I suppose, has a bit of relevance in retail but does seem a hopelessly out-dated national taxation policy.

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Can you imagine trying to sort out any errors? Probably having "customers" phoning premium rate numbers to discourage them from questioning the "computer" which says "no". It ties in nicely with a country where people are now guilty until proven innocent.

Both the taxman and big business want this change, how can it possibly be against the interests of the little guy?

:lol:

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  • 140 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
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      • up 5%



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