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Darling Attacks Germans Over Help For Greece

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/8010033/Darling-attacks-Germans-over-help-for-Greece.html

The euro has been permanently damaged by Germany's failure to intervene swiftly during the sovereign debt crisis earlier this year, Alistair Darling has said in an unusually frank attack.

The former Chancellor, who was in 11 Downing Street when Greece, Spain and Portugal came close to economic meltdown in the spring, made his unguarded comments at a conference of senior German and British officials on Thursday.

Privately, he is known to have been infuriated by Germany's failure to act swiftly as the markets scented blood, but has never before made his opinions public.

Speaking from the audience of the Königswinter Conference, he told Germany's Economics Minister Rainer Bruederle that the country had completely failed to come to terms with its responsibilities as a leader of the eurozone. He added that its reluctance intervene quickly "will have consequences" for the political future of the bloc.

At the height of the crisis, the euro's survival was in question as market confidence evaporated from the region and Germany, paralysed by public anger about domestic taxpayers rescuing Greek workers, pushed the Mediterranean nation to the brink. Germany also bitterly resisted external help from the International Monetary Fund.

Eventually, Europe extended Greece a €110bn aid package and established an IMF-backed €750bn (£625bn) emergency fund should other nations run into trouble. But Mr Darling believes relations have been permanently damaged.

The former UK Chancellor also laid into Europe's overly-bureaucratic engine and failure to deliver change. He said he would not be surprised if, when his grandchildren had grown up, European leaders were still promising progress on the Lisbon agenda and a breakthrough on Doha.

"Unless Europe makes changes internally, its growth will be sclerotic," he said.

Yes clearly the Germany taxpayer should have rushed in to support the Greek taxpayer who don't want to pay their taxes.

In fact why doesn't Darling say that the UK taxpayer should chip in with a couple of hundred billion for the Greeks?

You've got to love politicians spending other peoples money like there's no tomorrow.

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What were the German's thinking, they should have done the public spririted thing and bail out all and sundry at the drop of a hat and to hell with the population.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/8010033/Darling-attacks-Germans-over-help-for-Greece.html

Yes clearly the Germany taxpayer should have rushed in to support the Greek taxpayer who don't want to pay their taxes.

In fact why doesn't Darling say that the UK taxpayer should chip in with a couple of hundred billion for the Greeks?

You've got to love politicians spending other peoples money like there's no tomorrow.

Germans shouldn't of let them join the Euro if they were not going to take the responsibility of paying up for the Greeks. Germany has benefited massively from the Euro and they knew damn well what the problem would be 20 years before the Euro was started.

UK taxpayer is paying for Greece, btw.

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Europe faces a stark choice. We have progressed way beyond the idea of a common market. Either we become one fully integrated super state or we just forget the whole idea, ditch the euro and go back to being independent states. Full integration will be painful but what is the alternative if the EU is to survive?

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Germans shouldn't of let them join the Euro if they were not going to take the responsibility of paying up for the Greeks. Germany has benefited massively from the Euro and they knew damn well what the problem would be 20 years before the Euro was started.

UK taxpayer is paying for Greece, btw.

Yes I know via the IMF etc...

I was more hinting at the UK govt just giving them a couple of hundred billion in an up front way rather than via a pass the parcel bailout.

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Greece must be allowed to default and leave the Euro. It's the only way.

Spain, Portugal et al will follow thereafter.

+1. It's only a matter of time. The pressure will come from within the countries themselves. I suspect it will take a few more years of struggling with debt and ever rising unemployment before they realise it's the only way. Hopefully it will trigger the unravelling of the entire EU project.

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Spot on. Good to see a former British Chancellor agreeing with me and 'getting it'.

Merkin's an idiot.

Germans don't give a monkey's about 'Europe' - just Germans.

They didn't 'help' Greece - they helped German banksters and wealthy get their 'should have been defaulted on' savings back.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/8010033/Darling-attacks-Germans-over-help-for-Greece.html

Yes clearly the Germany taxpayer should have rushed in to support the Greek taxpayer who don't want to pay their taxes.

In fact why doesn't Darling say that the UK taxpayer should chip in with a couple of hundred billion for the Greeks?

You've got to love politicians spending other peoples money like there's no tomorrow.

1. Firstly by all accounts German and French banks have lent to Greek businesses, if Greece "goes under", they won't just be able to just sit on the sidelines and watch,some of their banks could go under

2. The oft repeated advice (usually from Euro sceptics) for Greece to leave (or be ejected) from the Euro wouldn't work, assume Greece readopt the drachma and devalue?, oh dear all their debt is in Euros! and now they have a currency worth significantly less so harder to pay back, probable result a very nasty default.

3. This isn't about individual Greek citizens sitting at home with their feet up, it's about a Government living

beyond it's means (a lot of that going around).

4. All things considered I'd be far more worried about the UK and US than Greece, Greece has the other countries of the EU to potentially help them out, who does the US or UK have to turn to? (and the debts's are comparable or far larger, UK almost 1bn, Greece 1bn, US 10bn or so I hear)

5. Indications are that Greece is getting it's economy under control

I think most of these politicians love the Greek crisis, classic misdirection [Press] "Mr Prime Minister, what are you going to do about the appalling UK economy" [PM] "OH MY GOD! look at Greece!!!" :lol:

Edited by madpenguin

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1. Firstly by all accounts German and French banks have lent to Greek businesses, if Greece "goes under", they won't just be able to just sit on the sidelines and watch,some of their banks could go under

2. The oft repeated advice for Greece to leave (or be ejected) from the Euro wouldn't work, assume Greece readopt the drachma and devalue?, oh dear all their debt is in Euros! and now they have a currency worth significantly less so harder to pay back, probable result a very nasty crash.

What is wrong with 1 and 2?

Banks that have been imprudent should be allowed to fail. Greece should default to purge all bad debts. Nothing wrong with that and there is little point in trying to delay the inevitable

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What is wrong with 1 and 2?

Banks that have been imprudent should be allowed to fail. Greece should default to purge all bad debts. Nothing wrong with that and there is little point in trying to delay the inevitable

In the case of bank failures, knock on effect for the whole economy, pension funds, personal savings, business failures etc (why has the UK government gone into the banking business, not on a whim I assure you).

OK Greece defaults, large foreign banks go bust,- ok not their problem but definitely implications in other countries as per 1 , Government can no longer function or provide basic services, or raise funding internationally to keep anything running, probable large scale riots, strikes, civil disobedience, possibly reasonably stable Government replaced by dangerous extremists (see Germany 1930's, people in crisis make crap decisions on who is best to cure it )

Edited by madpenguin

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In the case of bank failures, knock on effect for the whole economy, pension funds, personal savings, business failures etc (why has the UK government gone into the banking business, not on a whim I assure you).

I don't think you understand. It is unavoidable. It has to be done. Without purging the system there will be no recovery. The Governments have done precisely nothing. That is why there is and can be no recovery.

Edited by Errol

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I don't think you understand. It is unavoidable. It has to be done. Without purging the system there will be no recovery. The Governments have done precisely nothing. That is why there is and can be no recovery.

Will you write to Merv and the Condems and let them know or shall I? :)

While I agree in simplistic terms the reality is if everything crashes to the floor immediately there will likely be severe social consequences, therefore most Governments are trying to do it gradually

Edited by madpenguin

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In the case of bank failures, knock on effect for the whole economy, pension funds, personal savings, business failures etc (why has the UK government gone into the banking business, not on a whim I assure you).

OK Greece defaults, large foreign banks go bust,- ok not their problem but definitely implications in other countries as per 1 , Government can no longer function or provide basic services, or raise funding internationally to keep anything running, probable large scale riots, strikes, civil disobedience, possibly reasonably stable Government replaced by dangerous extremists (see Germany 1930's, people in crisis make crap decisions on who is best to cure it )

What is better a slow death or a quick death.

Quick death, Greece can not borrow on the international markets, deafults on its debt, German and French banks hit hard. Germany and France have to bailout thier banks with their tax payers money. Greece starts again only spending what revenue it gets in taxes (plus some help from the IMF to tied them over). because Drachma is cheap, Europeans start to go back on holiday to Greece and Greek exports more olive oil, etc. Greek economy starts to rebuild.

Slow death, Germany and France organise a bailout for Greece only to save their own banks (so Greece can pay interest to them) Greece has to cut its budget for the next 10 years year in year out, the percentage of taxes that are required to pay the interest to French and Germany banks goes up every year. Because of being in the Euro, very few Europeans go on holiday to Greece too expensive, Strikes and civil disturbances cause so many strikes against austerity that Greece can not export it;s oilve oil crop so economy just keeps shrinking. Greece defaults.

Germany bailed out Greece for only two reasons, one was because it would have been unpalatable to the German taxpayer to bail out the German banks and two because they did not want Greece lowering the value of the Euro so causing inflation.

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What is better a slow death or a quick death.

Quick death, Greece can not borrow on the international markets, deafults on its debt, German and French banks hit hard. Germany and France have to bailout thier banks with their tax payers money. Greece starts again only spending what revenue it gets in taxes (plus some help from the IMF to tied them over). because Drachma is cheap, Europeans start to go back on holiday to Greece and Greek exports more olive oil, etc. Greek economy starts to rebuild.

Slow death, Germany and France organise a bailout for Greece only to save their own banks (so Greece can pay interest to them) Greece has to cut its budget for the next 10 years year in year out, the percentage of taxes that are required to pay the interest to French and Germany banks goes up every year. Because of being in the Euro, very few Europeans go on holiday to Greece too expensive, Strikes and civil disturbances cause so many strikes against austerity that Greece can not export it;s oilve oil crop so economy just keeps shrinking. Greece defaults.

Germany bailed out Greece for only two reasons, one was because it would have been unpalatable to the German taxpayer to bail out the German banks and two because they did not want Greece lowering the value of the Euro so causing inflation.

For a start we are all more or less in the same boat, and in some sense we are all interdependent on each other, the UK earns a lot (despite what some may say) from Europe and an economic slowdown across Europe would have financial implications for the UK and probably the US economies.

If we proceed quickly I think it's pretty certain the economic effects would be nasty for everyone, and granted yes it could be the same if we go slowly, but at least with the slow approach the fall can be assessed and maybe even controlled to an extent, not pretending either choice is easy

As a matter of fact I bet Germany loves the low Euro, they are major exporters, and their business has been roaring ahead lately

Edited by madpenguin

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Privately, he is known to have been infuriated by Germany's failure to act swiftly as the markets scented blood, but has never before made his opinions public.

Speaking from the audience of the Königswinter Conference, he told Germany's Economics Minister Rainer Bruederle that the country had completely failed to come to terms with its responsibilities as a leader of the eurozone. He added that its reluctance intervene quickly "will have consequences" for the political future of the bloc.

Wow! The way he's talking to them it's as if the UK were running the EU.

Edited by billybong

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Wow! The way he's talking to them it's almost as if the UK were running the EU.

The EU? you mean the World dear boy surely? :lol:

Didn't realise the EU had a lead country

Germany's approach to QE seems to have been quite different to the UK/US, they have spent a lot on infrastructure projects, had one of our German managers complaining recently he was late in due to roadworks over many parts of Germany "they are making everything into 6 lanes, why do I need a 6 lane motorway!!" lol, but at least construction workers, architects, and all the supporting industries have got the cash rather than our plan of supporting bankers bonuses

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The EU? you mean the World dear boy surely? :lol:

Didn't realise the EU had a lead country

Germany's approach to QE seems to have been quite different to the UK/US, they have spent a lot on infrastructure projects, had one of our German managers complaining recently he was late in due to roadworks over many parts of Germany "they are making everything into 6 lanes, why do I need a 6 lane motorway!!" lol, but at least construction workers, architects, and all the supporting industries have got the cash rather than our plan of supporting bankers bonuses

Whereas all our money is going in wages to keep 60k a year diversity managers in a useless, unproductive job.

Basically we are completely screwed

:blink:

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I don't think you understand. It is unavoidable. It has to be done. Without purging the system there will be no recovery. The Governments have done precisely nothing. That is why there is and can be no recovery.

On the contrary they have been actively ensuring that things will get even worse.

:

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Whereas all our money is going in wages to keep 60k a year diversity managers in a useless, unproductive job.

Basically we are completely screwed

:blink:

I find your lack of faith disturbing, report to your local diversity and equality centre immediately for re-education :ph34r:

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/8010033/Darling-attacks-Germans-over-help-for-Greece.html

Yes clearly the Germany taxpayer should have rushed in to support the Greek taxpayer who don't want to pay their taxes.

In fact why doesn't Darling say that the UK taxpayer should chip in with a couple of hundred billion for the Greeks?

You've got to love politicians spending other peoples money like there's no tomorrow.

Very good answer ! and of course Darling was the chancellor who said he did not see the crisis coming !!

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It's typical of New Labour politicians to advocate throwing other peoples money at problems first and thinking about the consequences later.

What's wrong with a good old fashioned default? At least then the only people that lose out are the ones that were directly involved in the game, not innocent bystanders who have to clear up the mess.

FWIW the Euro is a good idea imo, it cuts down on transaction costs and provides exchange rate stability between member states, but as fiscal conditions were conducive to boombust economics bailouts and insolvency were inevitable. If members want to keep the Euro then a certain level of corruption is the price they're going to have to pay to hold the whole thing together.

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  • 145 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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