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Exam System Is "diseased And Corrupt"


bogbrush
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I hear your emotion loudly......there is of course no one answer, there is no one solution, no square peg will ever fit into a round hole without immense pain heartache and regret....the only path to where you want to travel to ( once you have established where you want to go, the hardest part) has to be the positive path...negativity takes you nowhere. ;)

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

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No, I can't accept that. It may be hard but giving up accountability is the ultimate defeat; with that you're finished.

Like I said - so far we have managed to beat the system but it has been bloody hard work and only possible because I packed my job in years ago.

What I am telling you is the reality of my own personal experiences - which are also backed up by the figures

If that doesn't fit in with your version of reality then there's not much I can say.

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That's a gross generalization. I see bright, hard working, white working class kids accessing top graduate jobs. Not as many as I would like but a good proportion. I agree that in the last 10 years social mobility has seemed to drop vs the 80s/90s. But its hardly impossible and wheher social mobility is worse than in the 50s-70s I'm not so sure.

In the organizations I've worked they took a small numbers of grads (actually more postgrads now) from the "top" universities in US/Europe/UK each year. The UK candidates have firsts, straight A's at A level, spotless academic records. The majority do stem from private schools but some from state schools. The proportions, however, don't seem any different from when I entered the workplace in a similar organization 13 years ago.

A levels have clearly been dumbed down even since when I did them in late 80s/early90s, not in terms of breadth but in terms of depth. I think that really a shame for the brightest/best since they often have no way of differentiatiing themselves. Nonetheless I don't feel that has disadvantaged Uk graduates over other countries. A grad 1st from Oxbridge in Maths can easily compete with a comparable from MIT/Harvard/Princeton or Heidelberg/Bocconi. I get a distinct feeling that the tendency toward increasing breadth at the expense of depth is a global phenomena in education. US, German and Italian colleagues complain about the same thing. Perhaps we're all just biased toward thinking the past was better.

The figures say that social mobility has declined

And my nephew lectures at Cambridge and he says that try as they might they just cannot find enough working class kids with the qualifications to get in.

At my kids A level college they don't even complete the syllabus in most subjects because they are trying to get everyone a grade C not the odd pupil a grade A.

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Can I just make it clear the contempt I hold this kind of thing in?

It's one more of the facile positive thinking delusions that are part of the problem and not the solution as advertised. I have to say in order to be fair that I'm not familiar with this particular example but I've been subjected to hours of this ordure through various credulous managers.

There has been a wholesale departure from analysis and realism for the realms of fantasy and delusion. The new charlatans sell their snakeoil to the gullible who lap it up. Their insecurities massaged they walk away assuming that as long as they think the right thoughts it'll all go their way.... These ******wits then assume that anyone that doesn't join in with their mass delusion is actually the reason for any failure they experience.

I hate them so very very much.

I agree - I was just being polite cos if I upset everyone they ignore me :(

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No, Mr Market gives you exactly what you pay for, as always. The trouble is that if f*ckwits ask for higher pass rates then that's what Mr Market gives them.

And he cares not how they are achieved? That's the problem though isn't it. To a hammer all problems are a nail, to a market all values are a number.

You're blaming the highly effective tool for the idiotic policy.

Nothing wrong with the tool or the policy, it's the absurdity of trying to define the latter in terms of the former that's the problem.

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<br />Can I just make it clear the contempt I hold this kind of thing in?<br /><br />It's one more of the facile positive thinking delusions that are part of the problem and not the solution as advertised. I have to say in order to be fair that I'm not familiar with this particular example but I've been subjected to hours of this ordure through various credulous managers.<br /><br />There has been a wholesale departure from analysis and realism for the realms of fantasy and delusion. The new charlatans sell their snakeoil to the gullible who lap it up. Their insecurities massaged they walk away assuming that as long as they think the right thoughts it'll all go their way.... These ******wits then assume that anyone that doesn't join in with their mass delusion is actually the reason for any failure they experience.<br /><br />I hate them so very very much.<br />

Remember they got rid of the old-skool style teachers before implementing the new dumbed_down regime - by deliberately underpaying and demeaning them!

The eltes did exactly the same by sacking all the old-style bank managers in the 1980's early 90's - before implementing their 50:1 fractional reserve bankrupt banking ballsup underpinned by the UK taxpayer.

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And he cares not how they are achieved? That's the problem though isn't it. To a hammer all problems are a nail, to a market all values are a number.

Nothing wrong with the tool or the policy, it's the absurdity of trying to define the latter in terms of the former that's the problem.

It's the problem of not using the market for everything, I think you mean.

Policy is something only a few want, and they foist it on everyone else against the wishes of the market.

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You mean how do people who make a lot of money from their own professions being drawn from an artificially small pool of people benefit from keeping the pool of people available to do their professions artifically small?

I see your point.

Some time ago you made a comment along the lines of "state education amounts to mass child abuse" - a comment I would agree with.

One thing I find soul destroying as a 'supply-guy' is the repetition of basic mind numbing tasks designed to stop thinking & stifle creativity.

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I agree - I was just being polite cos if I upset everyone they ignore me :(

I think you were wiser being polite, because neither I nor winkie (I think) were being credulous, or evangelical or naive, we were just stating the obvious.

Indeed you yourself said that you had, through great effort, overcome the odds. So, what's the point of you then suggesting people should just give up?

Look, sometimes you can try your best and not get what you want. that's life. However what is utterly certain is that if you don't try you definitely won't get anything.

Some people don't like that because believing it is impossible lessens the pain of failure, but again that doesn't actually help does it?

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I hear your emotion loudly......there is of course no one answer, there is no one solution, no square peg will ever fit into a round hole without immense pain heartache and regret....the only path to where you want to travel to ( once you have established where you want to go, the hardest part) has to be the positive path...negativity takes you nowhere. ;)

Setting yourself unachievable goals that you then constantly fail to meet just means that no matter how well you do - you always see yourself as a failure.

My kids are very bright - my relatives said apply to Oxford and Cambridge - I said you must be joking because they would never get the necessary grades at a state A level college.

Instead we aimed for a top 10 Russell Group university which they got into - but only just.

Due to divorce my relatives son went to a poor state school but I was told he was going to be a doctor.

This was frankly laughable but I said nothing apart from the fact that even with straight A's people without the right connections were struggling to get into medical school, but of course I was told this was rubbish and I was being negative.

At the end of the day the lad did extremely well to get B's and C's and he ended up doing bio chemistry at a fairly good Uni.

But his mother was devastated and the lad having done very well under the circumstances felt a failure.

My kids on the other hand are happy and feel they have done great things - which they have.

So which approach is best?

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And he cares not how they are achieved? That's the problem though isn't it. To a hammer all problems are a nail, to a market all values are a number.

Why do you insist on having this idea that there's such a thing as a hideous, cruel market that people are oppressed by? Markets are people; they aren't the enemy unless you hate people. If you incentivise people to do something they do it. If you want falsified exam achievement then pay them to hit league tables.

It's so basic and so obvious it's childish.

Nothing wrong with the tool or the policy, it's the absurdity of trying to define the latter in terms of the former that's the problem.

Wtf is that supposed to mean? It's incoherent.

Of course it is utterly retarded to have a policy where you rank schools in terms of how they get kids through exams and then cry foul when their education is garbage. It's equally stupid to blame the teachers and exam boards for delivering this disaster; were they supposed to risk losing their jobs disobeying their paymasters?

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I think you were wiser being polite, because neither I nor winkie (I think) were being credulous, or evangelical or naive, we were just stating the obvious.

Indeed you yourself said that you had, through great effort, overcome the odds. So, what's the point of you then suggesting people should just give up?

Look, sometimes you can try your best and not get what you want. that's life. However what is utterly certain is that if you don't try you definitely won't get anything.

Some people don't like that because believing it is impossible lessens the pain of failure, but again that doesn't actually help does it?

I never said anywhere that people should just give up.

What I said was that the days of people working their way up from the bottom are over - which I believe is true.

My view is that by recognising the obstacles, people can then set themselves challenging but worthwhile and achievable goals.

And when they then achieve these goals they feel they have suceeded agianst the odds - which is also true if they were state educated.

:)

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Setting yourself unachievable goals that you then constantly fail to meet just means that no matter how well you do - you always see yourself as a failure.

My kids are very bright - my relatives said apply to Oxford and Cambridge - I said you must be joking because they would never get the necessary grades at a state A level college.

Instead we aimed for a top 10 Russell Group university which they got into - but only just.

Due to divorce my relatives son went to a poor state school but I was told he was going to be a doctor.

This was frankly laughable but I said nothing apart from the fact that even with straight A's people without the right connections were struggling to get into medical school, but of course I was told this was rubbish and I was being negative.

At the end of the day the lad did extremely well to get B's and C's and he ended up doing bio chemistry at a fairly good Uni.

But his mother was devastated and the lad having done very well under the circumstances felt a failure.

My kids on the other hand are happy and feel they have done great things - which they have.

So which approach is best?

Neither. Whether you feel a success or failure should be down to how you view yourself, not how your qualifications or job describes you.

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Failure is inevitable and total, success an imposter who can be gained in brief bursts here and there, but will be ultimately lost.

And that is also glib

Because at the end of the day rich or poor we all end up as dust and everything we achieve and everything we love also ends as dust.

What I would like to know is how you manage to get out of bed in the mornings?

:blink:

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Well that is glib

Because it is hard to feel a success if you have an IQ of 120 plus and you end up stacking shelves in Sainsbury's

:)

No, it's not glib. God help anyone who's self-worth is defined by someone else's opinion (the employer who won't give them a job, the parent who doesn't approve). Screw them. What a life if you're not even allowed to decide you're own worth!

I try to teach my kids to take no notice of what anyone else - including me - thinks about them, except in such way as it provides help to inform their own opinion.

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No, it's not glib. God help anyone who's self-worth is defined by someone else's opinion (the employer who won't give them a job, the parent who doesn't approve). Screw them. What a life if you're not even allowed to decide you're own worth!

I try to teach my kids to take no notice of what anyone else - including me - thinks about them, except in such way as it provides help to inform their own opinion.

I just feel sorry for all the bright, hard working kids who have been chewed up and spat out by the system.

They are likely to end up spending most of their lives doing low paid, soul destroying jobs knowing they deserved better.

If you were lucky enough to avoid this fate, then I am very happy for you

but to deny that other people try their hardest but get nowhere because the system is rigged against them is naive IMO.

:blink:

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What is this obsession with grades, qualifications, universities.......at the end of the day a person will do what they want to do and no amount of ticks will guarantee a healthy wealthy life....if someone wants something bad enough they will get it whatever. ;)

The problem is we are now seeing ... what can I call it? ... a motivation gap (?) between state and grammar/independent pupils. It's quite hard to pin down, but it is definately there. Not only do half of all school leavers not even have the very basic level required not to be classed as functionally illiterate and inumerate, but they have no real idea of how to take action, or self-motivate to complete something.

I see students now who have no clue how to pursue something on a personal basis and develop it to an advanced level; they cannot apply themselves, and just do not have the courage of their own convictions. I worry that these young people can't "go out and get it", because they do not know how to work out what to get, or how to go about getting it, or even to work out what they need to get there.

There is an even deeper problem in that so many students have no notion of how wide and immense the world actually is, and how high the knowledge tiers actually go, and how skilled and knowledgeable so many of their icons are and how much work those people have actually put into what they do -- and it is this unawareness that is problematic, and I think cultural and educational constructs in Britain make this worse.

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The problem is we are now seeing ... what can I call it? ... a motivation gap (?) between state and grammar/independent pupils. It's quite hard to pin down, but it is definately there. Not only do half of all school leavers not even have the very basic level required not to be classed as functionally illiterate and inumerate, but they have no real idea of how to take action, or self-motivate to complete something.

I see students now who have no clue how to pursue something on a personal basis and develop it to an advanced level; they cannot apply themselves, and just do not have the courage of their own convictions. I worry that these young people can't "go out and get it", because they do not know how to work out what to get, or how to go about getting it, or even to work out what they need to get there.

There is an even deeper problem in that so many students have no notion of how wide and immense the world actually is, and how high the knowledge tiers actually go, and how skilled and knowledgeable so many of their icons are and how much work those people have actually put into what they do -- and it is this unawareness that is problematic, and I think cultural and educational constructs in Britain make this worse.

Another very good try - doomed to failure I suspect

Bloody Hell I am so negative - or am I just a realist?

:unsure:

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I never said anywhere that people should just give up.

What I said was that the days of people working their way up from the bottom are over - which I believe is true.

My view is that by recognising the obstacles, people can then set themselves challenging but worthwhile and achievable goals.

And when they then achieve these goals they feel they have suceeded agianst the odds - which is also true if they were state educated.

:)

If they didn't give up many would just focus on one of the winner take all careers like football, music, acting, drug dealing, etc.

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