Country Screwed

[Olebrum]

So, once you sold your soul to the devil and mortgaged what you have left in order to pay the vastly

overinflated costs of getting a degree. You still can't get a job because you won't work for peanuts

like the Indian graduate.

[alexw]

I don't agree. I've worked in France and Germany and salaries for SET jobs

are comparable or even lower than those in the UK.

The bloated UK finance sector does distort things a bit by offering ridiculously high salaries that are absolutely not value for money. Now everyone knows that most of their profits were bogus, salaries should drop (this gravy train has left the station) so things should rebalance going forward. But that's not the whole story.

The other part is the tendency of people not to do hard A'levels because you get lower grades and this feeds into

lack of students studying SET subjects at university. See how many chemistry departments in UK universities have closed in the last decade due essentially to lack of students.

An example, Tata Consultacy Services is an Indian software company (165,000 employees worldwide) that now employs about 5000 people in the UK. I know someone in HR and they tell me that they always try to hire locally. It makes business and political sense as this integrates the local workforce to the local community and works well with local customers. All big international companies do this. They would do this even without the EU restrictions about only hiring non EU citizens when EU citizens cannot be found. In a global economy, it should be obvious that skilled immigrants are not low-paid. You hire cheap IT workers in Bangalore not Basildon.

Law is a hard subject too, do we have a shortage of lawyers? The same with accountancy, is there a shortage of accountants?

Or perhaps because the salaries for these are much higher it attracts the necessary candidates.

Ergo you want more engineers or similar you let the market decide via supply & demand.

Or do you want us to decide communist style? I'm sure tractor engineer production will be up lots then.

As for tata what you have posted is a load of crap. Frankly, when i read the fluffy business speak you posted all i could do was laugh. Then i saw the 5,000 figure you gave for the UK for its employee numbers - the way you gave that figure believing it was uk workers - i found it hilarious. For your info Tata Consultancy Services is a well known bodyshop insourcing specialist that imports cheap labour from india to staff its offices in the west. For example it has 18,000 workers in the US from india on H1B and L1 visa's. And about that 5,000 figure - in 2009 tata sponsored 4,465 intra-company transfers (i.e. applied and got visa's for) last year. How's that for hiring locally eh?

[TheUsualSuspect]

Well we are where we are.

My point is, as an individual and as a country, you can look at the situation and whine about it like most people, or you can look at the big trends, see where the opportunities lie, and at least make an attempt at positioning yourself accordingly.

Failing to see any opportunities in this is just plain unimaginative, and probably means you (not personally) were at risk of becoming a dinosaur anyway.

I appreciate what you're saying, but it doesn't help solve the fact that by 2050 there will be, on current trajectories, 12-13 billion humans on the planet.

There are simply not enough resources to feed them, never mind provide cars/Nike football tops/etc. when the Oil runs out.

I admire your optimism and there is a lot to be said for seizing the moment, but if we all individually carry on in that mindset there will be nothing left and if you're aiming to retire in 2050 then I suspect you're going to have to adjust your outlook that the "growth" that would be necessary simply cannot happen in the finite world we inhabit. Bearing that in mind, the opportunities that you mention are all well and good, but if your/my generation don't stop with the infinite growth model we're using, then there will be nothing left. We simply have to think outside the current setup and start thinking about sustainability rather than exponential growth.

Mind you, i'm not in a much better position, 2040 would be my retirement date so we're in a very similar boat.

[madpenguin]

As for tata what you have posted is a load of crap. Frankly, when i read the fluffy business speak you posted all i could do was laugh. Then i saw the 5,000 figure you gave for the UK for its employee numbers - the way you gave that figure believing it was uk workers - i found it hilarious. For your info Tata Consultancy Services is a well known bodyshop insourcing specialist that imports cheap labour from india to staff its offices in the west. For example it has 18,000 workers in the US from india on H1B and L1 visa's. And about that 5,000 figure - in 2009 tata sponsored 4,465 intra-company transfers (i.e. applied and got visa's for) last year. How's that for hiring locally eh?

I agree, could scarcely believe my eyes when I saw that comment,Tata bring more ICT's into the UK than any other company!! I have had personal experience of this companies handiwork and I wouldn't trust them to be able to carry out the simplest tasks without screwing up, only time in my career a "web developer" has told me that a straightforward HTML/CSS job that an average new UK grad could do was "very complex".

As for employing UK workers, you mean like they did for Legal & General and Phones4U? :

http://www.computing.co.uk/computing/news/2237293/tcs-staff-arms-indian-4492772

Be sure to read the readers comments below the article!

Edited September 17, 2010 by madpenguin

[dothemaths]

Law is a hard subject too, do we have a shortage of lawyers? The same with accountancy, is there a shortage of accountants?

You are obviously a lawyer or accountant and not an engineer as you are so defensive.

I am not making a judgment of these fields only that you do not need to do maths and science A'levels to study them. Rightly or wrongly science and maths are perceived by many people to be hard to get high A'level grades. Certainly UKplc and USAinc need more engineers than lawyers or accountants at this point.

As for tata what you have posted is a load of crap. Frankly, when i read the fluffy business speak you posted all i could do was laugh. Then i saw the 5,000 figure you gave for the UK for its employee numbers - the way you gave that figure believing it was uk workers - i found it hilarious. For your info Tata Consultancy Services is a well known bodyshop insourcing specialist that imports cheap labour from india to staff its offices in the west. For example it has 18,000 workers in the US from india on H1B and L1 visa's. And about that 5,000 figure - in 2009 tata sponsored 4,465 intra-company transfers (i.e. applied and got visa's for) last year. How's that for hiring locally eh?

I see you are following George Bush and basically ignoring the facts in preference for your beliefs.

I know several British and American software engineers at TCS - I had dinner with several of them a couple of weeks ago and they weren't complaining about their sweat shop salaries. As far as I can see TCS is muscling into the financial software for propriety trading business in the UK. I was informed that they have a much bigger operation in the US - and they try to hire locally there too. What is the source of your information - the internet ?

[OnlyMe]

Roll out the lobby fodder.......

Business leaders back Cable in immigration row

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/business-leaders-back-cable-in-immigration-row-2082767.html

By David Prosser

Saturday, 18 September 2010

A raft of senior business figures yesterday backed Vince Cable, the Business Secretary, in a row over immigration that threatens to split the Coalition Government. While a Downing Street spokesman rejected Mr Cable's warning on Thursday that caps on immigration to the UK from non-European Union countries would do "huge damage" to the economy, business leaders supported him.

"There is a serious risk that an adverse immigration climate will damage the UK's reputation as a global business hub and spill over to other countries where British staff are assigned," Gill Gordon, chairman of the Permits Foundation, a group set up by 40 large companies, said. "This could cause a double rebound for the UK economy."

[madpenguin]

Roll out the lobby fodder.......

Business leaders back Cable in immigration row

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/business-leaders-back-cable-in-immigration-row-2082767.html

By David Prosser

Saturday, 18 September 2010

A raft of senior business figures yesterday backed Vince Cable, the Business Secretary, in a row over immigration that threatens to split the Coalition Government. While a Downing Street spokesman rejected Mr Cable's warning on Thursday that caps on immigration to the UK from non-European Union countries would do "huge damage" to the economy, business leaders supported him.

"There is a serious risk that an adverse immigration climate will damage the UK's reputation as a global business hub and spill over to other countries where British staff are assigned," Gill Gordon, chairman of the Permits Foundation, a group set up by 40 large companies, said. "This could cause a double rebound for the UK economy."

Might have known BT would be one of them

BT was accused earlier this month of importing workers from TechMahindra and paying them £220 a day, compared to the £400 a UK contractor could expect to command. BT has rejected the claims, saying that while it is using TechMahindra on projects, BT itself is not employing or importing TechMahindra contractors. BT has a stake in TechMahindra, and is in the middle of a wide-ranging jobs cull, having already frozen wages for both staffers and contractors.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/24/contractor_immigration

Edited September 18, 2010 by madpenguin

[moneyfornothing]

Might have known BT would be one of them

BT was accused earlier this month of importing workers from TechMahindra and paying them £220 a day, compared to the £400 a UK contractor could expect to command. BT has rejected the claims, saying that while it is using TechMahindra on projects, BT itself is not employing or importing TechMahindra contractors. BT has a stake in TechMahindra, and is in the middle of a wide-ranging jobs cull, having already frozen wages for both staffers and contractors.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/24/contractor_immigration

So 220 pounds a day is sweatshop labour and you cant compete with that ?

[madpenguin]

So 220 pounds a day is sweatshop labour and you cant compete with that ?

Firstly those figures are almost certainly gross cost to BT, if you think Techmahindra's staff get that you're dreaming, more like 14k per year

UK contractors have to pay their own sick pay, holiday pay, training, pension, liability insurance, Employers and employee NI, income tax, corporation tax, VAT, have money put aside for periods out of work, & accountants fees, and frequently have to work away from home, which means staying in B&B's or hotels, it also may not include the agents cut usually 10-15%, all this and no job security of any kind whatsoever.

In any case UK contract rates have dropped, in some cases much lower than £200 per day shown in this article, one reason I packed it in and took a perm job in Europe.

A number of managers I've spoken to say they actually save money on contractors, as once you factor in all the benefits a permanent member of staff gets it can work out more even though the employee sees a smaller salary.

One example someone gave me was that for a permanent employee on £35k they had to pay over £70k.

As for "competing", UK workers don't get the chance!, these companies sign direct agreements with the offshore suppliers and up until January this year they didn't even have to advertise the vacancy in the UK (check out the Jobcentre plus website, look for IT job's with salary "at or near minimum wage")

Edited September 18, 2010 by madpenguin

[ken_ichikawa]

as once you factor in all the benefits a permanent member of staff gets it can work out more even though the employee sees a smaller salary.

One example someone gave me was that for a permanent employee on £35k they had to pay over £70k

Um what benefits? You don't get any rights until the first 3 months have passed and this right is pilthy.

I.e. when you get sacked they have to give a reason instead of unsuitable.

Then you get little more for the next 9 months, then to sack you they just need to make some feeble excuse. Holiday pay doesn't exist all the companies do is pro rata the salary over a year and reduce it by the time you will spend off.

[SarahBell]

Go girl...!!! Writing to the Guardian is the new rioting...

XYY

Does anyone read the guardian though? ;-)

[madpenguin]

Um what benefits? You don't get any rights until the first 3 months have passed and this right is pilthy.

I.e. when you get sacked they have to give a reason instead of unsuitable.

Then you get little more for the next 9 months, then to sack you they just need to make some feeble excuse. Holiday pay doesn't exist all the companies do is pro rata the salary over a year and reduce it by the time you will spend off.

Can't comment on the companies you've worked for, just going by what I've been told by managers I've done contract work for, most of the companies I've worked for have been in the FTSE100 and definitely have these benefits.

I've always maintained if an employer treats you like crap move

"You don't get any rights until the first 3 months have passed"

..and, do you think this is unreasonable somehow?, if an employer is hiring you for a permenant job they want to know you can actually do the job , and don't come in when you feel like (seen some appalling behaviour by new employees and contract staff).

"I.e. when you get sacked they have to give a reason instead of unsuitable."

Better than contractors, can be terminated at any time without giving any reason whatsoever,

often with only a weeks notice needing to be given on the companies side.

"Holiday pay doesn't exist all the companies do is pro rata the salary over a year and reduce it by the time you will spend off."

So you don't get paid when you take annual leave?, you definitely need to move!

Edited September 18, 2010 by madpenguin

[ZeroSumGame]

On BBC 24 there were several references to this onshoring lark.

It gave a quote from the Home Office saying that Cable's proposals would do nothing to help the millions of unemployed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-11338994 e.g.

Actually Peston's blog contains some great comments......... I don't need to rabbit on about it here!

"For most people, there seems to be a contradiction here. Surely if jobs aren't going to managers, engineers, micro-biologists or bankers from India, the US and Hong Kong, they must be going to Brits - which would surely be a good thing.

And this is presumably what David Cameron and George Osborne believe, or they wouldn't have imposed the cap."

Remind me again.....................which country was it that gave the world the industrial revolution?

So 220 pounds a day is sweatshop labour and you cant compete with that ?

Well obviously not if you've just been sacked and the work is given to the On-shorer.

Edited September 18, 2010 by ZeroSumGame

[sleepwello'nights]

General Manager in a food factory............yes there are still some factories left in the UK!

Stop looking for someone under 35 and you might find more suitable candidates with the relevant ability, skill and experience. But maybe without the paper qualifications most recruitment consultants insist on.

[goldbug9999]

Lots of people willing to take on a 9-5 job where all problems are kicked upstairs.

I don't see why anyone in a civilised country should have to work more than a 40 hour week. If people are expected to work more than that points to lack of effective organisation. In my particular niche "agile development" we have the notion of "sustainable pace" which means long working hours is positively discouraged, the theory being that a well rested worker with a good work life balance is inherently much more productive. And it actually works in practice - I/we are routinely hired to supplement and sometimes replace cheap ICT/offshore labour despite our reasuringly expensive rates

[madpenguin]

Plus an idiotic statement from Peston about the skills not being deep and wide enough!

I was quite deep and wide, but I went on a diet and joined a gym!

[ZeroSumGame]

I was quite deep and wide, but I went on a diet and joined a gym!

Nah that was your rate being cut by 66% and you had to stop eating.

Actually Pestons Blog is quite good. It's worth a read.

[Bloo Loo]

I don't see why anyone in a civilised country should have to work more than a 40 hour week. If people are expected to work more than that points to lack of effective organisation. In my particular niche "agile development" we have the notion of "sustainable pace" which means long working hours is positively discouraged, the theory being that a well rested worker with a good work life balance is inherently much more productive. And it actually works in practice - I/we are routinely hired to supplement and sometimes replace cheap ICT/offshore labour despite our reasuringly expensive rates

All very well until your market is filled up with competition, and/or, the debt costs start to rise.

[madpenguin]

I don't see why anyone in a civilised country should have to work more than a 40 hour week. If people are expected to work more than that points to lack of effective organisation. In my particular niche "agile development" we have the notion of "sustainable pace" which means long working hours is positively discouraged, the theory being that a well rested worker with a good work life balance is inherently much more productive. And it actually works in practice - I/we are routinely hired to supplement and sometimes replace cheap ICT/offshore labour despite our reasuringly expensive rates

That's right, I've worked in Germany and now the Netherlands and it's quite common for a manager or director to ask why you're still at work after hours (mostly cultural but also for legal reasons) .

The UK signed up to the EEC "Working time directive" which restricts working hours to around 40 a week, but typically whined for an "opt-out", basically the employee signs a bit of paper saying they don't mind working longer hours.

Sweat shop Britain indeed! :angry:

(to those who say "what about jobs like junior doctors", I'd say I'd prefer twice as many to be trained so that when I'm wheeled into hospital the person who is trying to save my life isn't trying to stay awake)

Edited September 18, 2010 by madpenguin

[madpenguin]

Nah that was your rate being cut by 66% and you had to stop eating.

Actually Pestons Blog is quite good. It's worth a read.

Yeah miss my lunchtime snacks of a whole chicken stuffed inside a suckling pig stuffed inside a whole cow (with vindaloo sauce obviously!)

Yeah I generally like Peston's column's and Steph too

meetyourindianreplacement.com

Edited September 18, 2010 by madpenguin

[goldbug9999]

All very well until your market is filled up with competition, and/or, the debt costs start to rise.

I'm already 5 to 10 times the cost of my ICT/offshore competitors so to some extent it doesnt matter how cheap they get as any further costs savings are approaching zero. As a matter of principal I never compete on price and routinely land work against (sometimes much) cheaper competitors- my clients are more concerned about my value rather than my cost ...

[goldbug9999]

For the benefit if the other people in IT around here, the Professional Contractors Group (PCG) is actively campaigning against ICT and and has the ear of some MPs. It is worth supporting for this reason alone. Previously the PCG got all IT skills taken off the tier 2 visa list.

PCG

I'm going to head over there myself in a mo to see whats happening about the Vince issue.

[Tired of Waiting]

That's right, I've worked in Germany and now the Netherlands and it's quite common for a manager or director to ask why you're still at work after hours (mostly cultural but also for legal reasons) .

The UK signed up to the EEC "Working time directive" which restricts working hours to around 40 a week, but typically whined for an "opt-out", basically the employee signs a bit of paper saying they don't mind working longer hours.

Sweat shop Britain indeed! :angry:

(to those who say "what about jobs like junior doctors", I'd say I'd prefer twice as many to be trained so that when I'm wheeled into hospital the person who is trying to save my life isn't trying to stay awake)

Good post.

The biggest drag on UK international competitiveness is capital costs, mainly properties, increasing both living costs and production costs. (See my sig.) Also problematic are our infrastructure (mainly transport) and state education.

[madpenguin]

I'm already 5 to 10 times the cost of my ICT/offshore competitors so to some extent it doesnt matter how cheap they get as any further costs savings are approaching zero. As a matter of principal I never compete on price and routinely land work against (sometimes much) cheaper competitors- my clients are more concerned about my value rather than my cost ...

Very true Goldbug, software development is a skill vastly underrated by casual observers, I read a study somewhere where the difference in productivity and accuracy provided by an experienced programmer is x10 better.than a novice (some thing for manager who says "if we double the number of developers we'll finish twice as quickly" to think about, heard this a lot where ICT is used)

Frequently ICT staff are fresh graduates or 2nd jobbers and I've worked on several projects where major parts of the system had to be re-coded from scratch 3-4 times as they where effectively "learning on the job" including some large Government projects used nationally.

A good developer is literally worth his weight in gold

[madpenguin]

Good post.

The biggest drag on UK international competitiveness is capital costs, mainly properties, increasing both living costs and production costs. (See my sig.) Also problematic are our infrastructure (mainly transport) and state education.

Correct, in the UK you are subjected to a massive amount of crap about how high prices are due to "global conditions" and that "it's even worse in Europe".

Last time I was in the UK a normal sized loaf of bread (factory produced Hovis or Kingsmill ) about £1.20 (6 months ago), I currently get fresh baked sliced white tiger bread baked that day in the supermarkets own bakery for 1 euro about 80-85p in UK money. I Spend only about 20-25 euros a week on me for shopping at present compared to 40-50 odd pounds in the UK (Lived in the South)

In Germany went into a bank to pay a bill and because I didn't bank there the girl behind the counter said I'd have to pay a charge, I dutifully pulled out a 20 euro note, and there was a brief silence before she said "do you have anything smaller it's 2 euros!"

All the utilities are way cheaper, Council tax a pittance (about 120 euros for a year, you can opt to pay in two halves!) and the banks appear to be firmly on a leash, (or maybe just fair!), my bank in Holland has a long glass fronted fridge behind the counter filled with bottled water, during the summer they just hand them to you when you come in (for whatever reason)