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Uk It Workers Are Leaving The Uk Because They Are Fed Up


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Yes, Im a contractor been fully booked up all this year, and probably most of next year the way things are looking.

In London? What's your skillset? A mate of mine was contracting but has been out of work for 2 years now. He's also a cobol/unix programmer so to be expected I suppose. Lets hope you'll always be in work but I'm sure you're only too aware of the need to keepupdating your skillset which I would find precarious & expensive. My advice would be to get into management by the time you're 40 as then you call the shots!

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In London? What's your skillset? A mate of mine was contracting but has been out of work for 2 years now. He's also a cobol/unix programmer so to be expected I suppose. Lets hope you'll always be in work but I'm sure you're only too aware of the need to keepupdating your skillset which I would find precarious & expensive. My advice would be to get into management by the time you're 40 as then you call the shots!

From my experience it looks like 'Change' stuff is rapidly overtaking IT as the place to be in UK contracting. Will probably get a but tight by the end of 2011 though as the big boys all end their huge programmes at similar times. Money is getting far closer as well. For a basic project analyst/Programme office perswn in Edinburgh just now you are looking at £3-400. A few years ago it was more like £2-300. Big jump. Business change analysts or senior change chumps can expect £400+.

At present and for the last 3 years it has been mental. I am in the fortunate position of being able to pretty much pick and choose what job I do and how much I get paid. It is unlikely to last though so I am putting the readies away.

The people who get it wrong IMO are those who get 'into contracting' and assume that money is what they will earn for the next 20 years. Some may manage it but the vast majorithy will not.

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Ok, imagine a situation where at a certain company it takes 10 years hard work to get to a certain technical grade if you are a local worker

Them imagine that the company gets all keen on ICT workers, takes them straight from uni in India, gets them 6 months experience then promotes them to a grade higher than the local workers with 10 years experience. Making them higher grade makes the ICT visa easier to obtain.

Then imagine that the local workers have to mentor, manage workers who are on higher grades than them. And transfer all their knowledge too, the ultimate aim being the local worker gets replaced by ICT workers. Maybe that job will be permanently sent offshore too.

It's not a level playing field for local workers.

So perhaps they should form a union.

Or re-negotiate their own contracts and if they're still feeling pompous.

Either way, fight or shut the feck up about how unfair it is.

Edited by Laughing Gnome
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I work with lots of Indian IT contractors who aren't ICTs.

They all come here on a programme called HSMP - high skilled migrants or something.

I can only think they are massively undercharging in the open Market too. Substantially less than £300 per day based on the ratios of Indians to Brits I have observed and based on knowledge of client budgets.

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That website hasn't been updated since January 2010. Is this campaign still ongoing?

For what it is worth, I see this regularly at my place of work. Some of the offices I work in are 50% staffed with Indian nationals. It is very depressing and is having a measurable effect on job prospects in the industry.

A thought occurred to me the other day. For the last few years I have been the youngest person on most of my projects. Interesting, no? In case you don't get the implication, this means that I am literally the last man in. I have no new graduates or junior members of the team (from the UK anyway) to train up and pass my knowledge on to.

I think that link was dated March 2010, the news section has data from August. What are the Indian nationals doing where you work?

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I don't see it that way. It's very hard, or impossible really, to automate any genuine 'knowledge' work. You need too much human intuition and problem solving or language skills. I'm thinking technical R&D, law, medicine, research (arts & science), language translation etc. Those jobs will always need people to do them because machines/AI are simply not good enough and probably never will be in our lifetimes.

I think this is true for the more intuitive skills at the top end- but most 'knowledge workers' are really doing fairly definable things that can be broken down into discrete blocks that a computer will be able to process. Even things like the law are finite bodies of information that can be codified to a large degree. What computers lack in intuition they gain in sheer processing power- this is why they now consistently beat grand masters at chess- they can simply select the optimum strategy by real time testing many many possible solutions.

So one can imagine that a given legal problem would involve both a comprehensive understanding of the 'rules' combined with the ability to run through at high speed many permutations of outcomes to select the optimum strategy- not so very different from chess.

The exponential style growth in computer power might catch people out if they are assuming a simple linear development into the future.

The skills that will be hard to computerise are those like dentistry which require both a high degree of technical knowledge and a high degree of hand eye skills.

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I think this is true for the more intuitive skills at the top end- but most 'knowledge workers' are really doing fairly definable things that can be broken down into discrete blocks that a computer will be able to process. Even things like the law are finite bodies of information that can be codified to a large degree. What computers lack in intuition they gain in sheer processing power- this is why they now consistently beat grand masters at chess- they can simply select the optimum strategy by real time testing many many possible solutions.

So one can imagine that a given legal problem would involve both a comprehensive understanding of the 'rules' combined with the ability to run through at high speed many permutations of outcomes to select the optimum strategy- not so very different from chess.

The exponential style growth in computer power might catch people out if they are assuming a simple linear development into the future.

The skills that will be hard to computerise are those like dentistry which require both a high degree of technical knowledge and a high degree of hand eye skills.

Actually, dentistry will be pretty much finished within a decade. A single injection can bring about development of a new set of adult teeth, and regenerate all requisite supporting bone in the long-term endentulous. This is under development now, despite the best efforts of the dental establishment to derail it.

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Yes, Goldsmith who IIRC ensured he died in some foreign country so that he (and his family) did not need to pay any death duties.

You think you should line up to hand over a big chunk of everything you have worked for all your life for the government to waste?

I don't mind paying income tax to pay for essential services. But I think we are pretty well taxed all our lives and when we die what's ours should be left alone to be passed on to whoever we like.

My point was that a sharp financier was warning as soon as globalization was getting into its stride that it was a bad idea but the do-gooders, of course, thought it would raise living standards in the third world without affecting ours.

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How things have changed in attitudes today to how the indigenous working population are treated by the powerful.

Never again will you see the " I`m Backing Britain" campaign of Harold Wilson`s 1960s. ;)

I still have a roll of I`m Backing Britain stickers given to me to stick on the products I was selling. :)

If you don`t know the real reason why we are going downhill then I`m glad I saw it, smelt it, and took the necessary precautions to avoid it affecting myself and my family. B)

Interesting you mention this. I got a leaflet through the door the other day from the local council. It asked us to support our local shops, as it meant money circulated around the local community.

Fairy snuff, I thought.

But the weird thing was, underneath was this disclaimer that said something like: "this campaign isn't about protectionism" or something like that.

And i just thought ... why the hell have you put that? Are you really that scared of anything that supports people rather than multinationals? Are you really that scared of being seen as economically politically incorrect?

It's just pathetic. These people have no backbone.

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Actually, dentistry will be pretty much finished within a decade. A single injection can bring about development of a new set of adult teeth, and regenerate all requisite supporting bone in the long-term endentulous. This is under development now, despite the best efforts of the dental establishment to derail it.

Cool, any links to info for this? I have typically bad british teeth and being able to re-grow teeth rather than have dentures when I'm old sounds like a winner.

I'm guessing, but is it based on stem cells?

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I think this is true for the more intuitive skills at the top end- but most 'knowledge workers' are really doing fairly definable things that can be broken down into discrete blocks that a computer will be able to process. Even things like the law are finite bodies of information that can be codified to a large degree. What computers lack in intuition they gain in sheer processing power- this is why they now consistently beat grand masters at chess- they can simply select the optimum strategy by real time testing many many possible solutions.

So one can imagine that a given legal problem would involve both a comprehensive understanding of the 'rules' combined with the ability to run through at high speed many permutations of outcomes to select the optimum strategy- not so very different from chess.

The exponential style growth in computer power might catch people out if they are assuming a simple linear development into the future.

The skills that will be hard to computerise are those like dentistry which require both a high degree of technical knowledge and a high degree of hand eye skills.

The computing power isn't the problem, it's the algorithms to simulate human thoughts/decisions. Take the legal example - how would you write the rules? Try sitting down and defining 'on balance of probabilities', or 'guilty until proven innocent' using maths or some computer language like C/C++, Java, Python or any other you might know. Now do the same for the US/French/German/etc. law system. It's currently not possible to define it in a way that a machine could process. Even just the language is a problem - machine translation is notoriously bad.

The problem with throwing brute force at a problem is it is limited by the assumptions you used when making the system. A brilliant example is the computerised trading systems that all went bananas earlier this year and caused a massive drop in stocks. There was no 'real' reason for that, it was purely down the models they had been programmed with and the panicked selling they triggered.

(How come they can trade as fast as they want anyway? Why isn't it limited to once a second, or once a minute, to at least give human brokers a chance to react to the market?)

I wish more people understood the limitations of computers. People who don't tend to think of them as a magic fix for all kinds of hare-brained schemes (hello NHS IT project! hello tax credits!).

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Of course its low. They can barely take a order for curry over the phone correctly, does anyone really think they can understand complex system requirements and implement them in a language that isnt their own?

BTW after 18 years of contracting continuously he would be absolutely loaded.

Its becoming clear to me that the next generation of people are so badly educated they will not be competing with people 10 years older them, ever.

So we have cheap immigrants, or dumbed down young locals, or expensive experienced people. Tough call :)

As I'm sure you know, if you actually want a system that works, expensive experienced people are the only ones who are going to give it to you.

If you want an expensive white elephant you go the "much cheapness" route so favoured by the last government.

Everyone in the industry knows about the Telford based Cap Gemini run ICT worker produced shambles that is responsible for the current negative headlines about erroneous tax bills.

French software consultancy importing indian labour screws up UK tax system.

New Labour have a hell of a lot to answer for.

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The computing power isn't the problem, it's the algorithms to simulate human thoughts/decisions. Take the legal example - how would you write the rules? Try sitting down and defining 'on balance of probabilities', or 'guilty until proven innocent'

I reckon you're thinking of this the wrong way...

There is no need to replicate human thoughts, the computers onboard aircraft and in your cars are feedback systems which can handle immensely complex (to humans) tasks.

I think a lawyer system would be incremental.

Case law will be indexed on a big SQL database a big one. This means instead of searching around in books for case law lawyers can now use advanced search engines. Note my sister took 10 weeks to do her dissetation, I took 2 weeks because Infotrax and Athens journal software pretty much did the same thing with articles and text books it took me days instead of weeks to find journals and articles to cite in my dissertation.

This still requires a person to search. But you need less of them, normally the junors are assigned this donkey work...

As a result there are job losses immediately.

Then as time goes on it becomes a Q&A system much like an insurance comparisom website to determine the particulars of the case in greater depth. Where it again will search databases and extract relevant case law and output this to the lawyer.

Two paths I can envisage:

#1 The self service route, like ATMs and online insurance buying, where for a fee people can use this system to self build cases using the massive computerised database of case law. Whereby a case is built for the person who is suing or defending. For an extra fee they can hire a flesh and blood barrister. This will make lots of money for the people who maintain and keep databases. Subsequently there is a large increase in litigation because it is so easy... Examples of this are the make your own will packs you see in WHSmiths.

#2 Where the Q&A system is provided to the Lawyers only who will pay hugely for it because they fear the above system will be released to the public destroying their livelihoods. This means that a secretary gets a case enters the relevant details and a defence or prosecution strategy along with cited case law comes out the computer. Machine readable forms can cut the secretaty out completely too.

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Hello Chaps and welcome to my world :)

This has been happening in the film/TV world for over 20 years now ..

I have been in the camera dept since 1992 .. Typically a camera assistant will spend 3-5 years breaking into the job, Making tea, working for free. Working as a Focus Puller is one of the most highly skilled and stressful jobs around, in the past it was comparable with a Doctor/Lawyer.

The day rate has always been pretty low in 1985 it would be £200 a day or so .. But because it's hourly paid and the hours and the overtime payments are so high .. the income was pretty high .. (for instance in the 80's if you started work at 8am by 2am the next morning you were on a "ghoster" and on 10x hour rate)

When I started as a Focus puller the rate for commercials was £280 a day (8 Hours) and for music videos £600 (8 - 1am) .

In the 90's the whole production industry moved overseas .. Czech Republic/Poland/Hungary/South Africa Of course in the early days it was great fun, being paid to fly first class to Cape Town. In the end it was inevitable that people would start to use local talent. Now it would be rare to be shipped overseas ..

Rates in the UK have cratered .. the weekly rate for a TV drama shooting 72 hours a week is as low as £750 and is Paye by default .. there is no overtime .. and no travel time. If a production had shot a similar schedule in the mid 80's it would have cost £2000 at least ..

The reality is that (as other people have pointed out) you have to accept that you are in a global jobs market now and that the reality may be that wages will drop 10% year on year for the next 20 years or so, as they have already done in my profession.

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+1

Foreign I.T. people are prepared to work for £1.30 per hour ... and the same worker in the UK wants £15 per hour?!! :lol:. Our wages are going down ..... it's part of the globalization thing :)

You might get offshore data entry staff for that rate but the days of a fully qualified Indian IT technician for £1.30 an hour went years ago.

Edited by realcrookswearsuits
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Case law will be indexed on a big SQL database a big one. This means instead of searching around in books for case law lawyers can now use advanced search engines. Note my sister took 10 weeks to do her dissetation, I took 2 weeks because Infotrax and Athens journal software pretty much did the same thing with articles and text books it took me days instead of weeks to find journals and articles to cite in my dissertation.

Relational databases have been around since the days of Noah (well at least since Codd and Date). SQL is just the language used to query them. It has been extended and refined over the years but the principles that drive the underlying database management system have not changed that much. The main point is that someone still has to write alogorithms to extract the data from them. Search engines are just programs with sets of complex algorithms

As for case law it is rather a poor example for the power of automization since the whole process is rather more than the simple parroting of past examples in front of a judge.The best lawyers earn their money be showing why particular past cases should or should not apply to the specific circumstances of their clients and it is this activity which computers are not really going to master in their current form. In fact case law is always being created and extended as circumstances change so it is not simply the application of a preexisting set of rules.

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I love this IT Doom and Gloom sh1te...it persuades the former EAs, building surveyors, Quantity Surveyors, Police officers, Army cannon fodder, and all the other tools to stay the fook out of IT in the UK! Also, persuades the knob IT graduates to take their chances at McDonalds too!

As for those (like me) who know that IT is fine and dandy in the UK it makes job hunting and recruitment that much easier! Plenty of IT roles out there if you're good at what you do! From helpdesk to Board Director, if you know your stuff and can talk in a normal fashion without pretending that you're a knob on the Apprentice then getting a job in IT is a piece of pish!

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if you know your stuff and can talk in a normal fashion without pretending that you're a knob on the Apprentice then getting a job in IT is a piece of pish!

...your communication skills lack jargon are clear and straight to the point....you're right ...you should have no problem...... :)

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Interesting you mention this. I got a leaflet through the door the other day from the local council. It asked us to support our local shops, as it meant money circulated around the local community.

Fairy snuff, I thought.

But the weird thing was, underneath was this disclaimer that said something like: "this campaign isn't about protectionism" or something like that.

And i just thought ... why the hell have you put that? Are you really that scared of anything that supports people rather than multinationals? Are you really that scared of being seen as economically politically incorrect?

It's just pathetic. These people have no backbone.

IT is my understanding that such behaviour breaks some European ruling but I'm struggling to back it up with a link

althjough you only have to put"council buy local" into google to see they'ra ALL at it

Edited by daiking
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It is not really though is it ?

Some specific areas fair enough. But that is always the case.

Well...for me it's more about ignoring the middle IT manager plague...the person that has no technical skills but thinks that they can manage technical people by knowing all about ITIL??? Or the Project manager that thinks because they are Prince2 qualified then they know everything etc...or even worse...the BCS/MBCS people! LOL

Programmers, tech support guys, DBAs, infrastructure engineers, telecoms engineers with good people skils will never be out of work in IT in the UK! Also, PMs with great people skills who recognise the skills of others and know how to utilise those skills are still in huge demand! Those guys usually go onto to becoming IT Directors.

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As I'm sure you know, if you actually want a system that works, expensive experienced people are the only ones who are going to give it to you.

If you want an expensive white elephant you go the "much cheapness" route so favoured by the last government.

Everyone in the industry knows about the Telford based Cap Gemini run ICT worker produced shambles that is responsible for the current negative headlines about erroneous tax bills.

French software consultancy importing indian labour screws up UK tax system.

New Labour have a hell of a lot to answer for.

Strange to believe but back in the 1980s the Inland Revenue was once regarded as a model of how to implement large government computer systems but that was before the whole of its IT department got outsourced.

I gather most of its best IT staff resigned, retired or took severance years ago.

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  • 433 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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