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Uk It Workers Are Leaving The Uk Because They Are Fed Up


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Of course its low. They can barely take a order for curry over the phone correctly, does anyone really think they can understand complex system requirements and implement them in a language that isnt their own?

BTW after 18 years of contracting continuously he would be absolutely loaded.

Its becoming clear to me that the next generation of people are so badly educated they will not be competing with people 10 years older them, ever.

So we have cheap immigrants, or dumbed down young locals, or expensive experienced people. Tough call :)

Unless they are one of the many who lived like this cash was guranteed for the rest of their lives. You know the ones. Drive an M3 and a big Range Rover. Mega expensive houses. Lavish holidays. Kids all at private school.

Earnt 500 per day for the last 18 years and don't have a penny saved. I think there are more of this lot out there than people think.

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My own plans are to leave the UK as soon as my other half drops our first sprog. Where I am looking I will have a 1x salary mortgage for 15 years, and somewhere three times the size of my current place.

It really is a no brainer... The UK - shallow, overtaxed, inefficient and corrupt is a joke (& the weather is sh1t too)

Where are you going?

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My own plans are to leave the UK as soon as my other half drops our first sprog. Where I am looking I will have a 1x salary mortgage for 15 years, and somewhere three times the size of my current place.

It really is a no brainer... The UK - shallow, overtaxed, inefficient and corrupt is a joke (& the weather is sh1t too)

Where are you thinking of going? Has to be an English speaking country if you plan to work?

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Earnt 500 per day for the last 18 years and don't have a penny saved. I think there are more of this lot out there than people think.

Very unlikely to have been working all that time, and consistently at that kind of rate. There will have been gaps of months between jobs and over that kind of time span they would have retrained at least once.

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Very unlikely to have been working all that time, and consistently at that kind of rate. There will have been gaps of months between jobs and over that kind of time span they would have retrained at least once.

Oh aye I know that. Just making the point that many of these people are very flashy and very 'rich' looking but spend it as quickly as they earn it.

Then you have the other end of the scale IT contractor who drives an old Escort and probably has savings that would make a small African country jealous !!

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Asia looks upon the young as a way of providing for the older members of the family.

But of course we do it by forcing young people to borrow fortunes to pay for our houses. Subtle, but it has the same effect.

I'm wondering when the powers that be will realise that there is a symbiotic relationship between the businesses in this country and the people in this country. There really is no point every business trying to outsource production overseas and then pay Indian software writers to come here and write the apps that run their business.

We'll end up with a country with half the people unemployed and feck all demand for the products the company makes. If they are not interested in the UK market - why would they be here in the first place.

It's time for the government to take some sort of lead on this. A globalized economy seems to me to be simply a race to the bottom - who and where is cheapest to set up and employ? As, I believe Goldsmith(? forgotten his name, father of new MP for Richmond - died a few years ago) pointed out in 1994.

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It's time for the government to take some sort of lead on this.

I think you've over-estimating the ability or desire of politicians to make such a forward thinking idea.

But thankfully, there's a limiting factor in how for the outsourcing can go.. the inflation of the country eg. india, as their employees demand ever higher wages.

I remember hearing about companies getting 30-40% benefit from outsourcing, but once this drops to 10%, and throw in language difficulties, timezones, different working practices, eventually all the outsourcing will stop.

In 10-15 years time, once this wave of socialism (by all 3 parties) bankrupts the country, a whole new wave of industrial renaissance will start up, factories making shoes, locally grown veg etc., employing uk people, and we will wonder how on earth it was ever any other way.

I think the opposite of globalisation - 'localisation' (which is just 'protectionism' - always said like it's a bad thing) is inevitable, and just what the doctor ordered.

But before that, I fear 10-15 years of slow decline and collapse, or a hyper inflationary event to get rid of the debit- which would restart the renaissance much quicker.

Bring on the collapse, so that sensible-thinking people can start small businesses again, low taxation, few barriers to entry and rules, genuine capitalism - no-one too big to fail.

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But thankfully, there's a limiting factor in how for the outsourcing can go.. the inflation of the country eg. india, as their employees demand ever higher wages.

I remember hearing about companies getting 30-40% benefit from outsourcing, but once this drops to 10%, and throw in language difficulties, timezones, different working practices, eventually all the outsourcing will stop.

In 10-15 years time, once this wave of socialism (by all 3 parties) bankrupts the country, a whole new wave of industrial renaissance will start up, factories making shoes, locally grown veg etc., employing uk people, and we will wonder how on earth it was ever any other way.

But you seem to say it is an XOR solution, i.e. the jobs have to be overseas or here. This does not consider the improvements of technology over time which can automate jobs or push jobs so that they are done by the consumer instead of staff. Internet apps are excellent examples of this, 10-15 years ago you might have hired somebody or used geocities site builders to make a pish site. Today blogger and such like you can create a fairly decent site with the work pushed onto self service. Intemet banking the same.

YOu say 10-15 years we have factories things? But will these factories need any people? 5 or so years ago BMW built a car plant, 10000 people applied, they needed less than 100 workers as the plant was heavily automated.

The carpet factory I audited in 2008 had 100s of staff working on the old looms, I walked into a room with a massive automated machine, could weave carpet 10 times faster than the looms and 5-10 metres wide, it required 1 person to look after 3 machines. As there was no longer a need for quality control as it had been automated.

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But you seem to say it is an XOR solution, i.e. the jobs have to be overseas or here. This does not consider the improvements of technology over time which can automate jobs or push jobs so that they are done by the consumer instead of staff. Internet apps are excellent examples of this, 10-15 years ago you might have hired somebody or used geocities site builders to make a pish site. Today blogger and such like you can create a fairly decent site with the work pushed onto self service. Intemet banking the same.

YOu say 10-15 years we have factories things? But will these factories need any people? 5 or so years ago BMW built a car plant, 10000 people applied, they needed less than 100 workers as the plant was heavily automated.

The carpet factory I audited in 2008 had 100s of staff working on the old looms, I walked into a room with a massive automated machine, could weave carpet 10 times faster than the looms and 5-10 metres wide, it required 1 person to look after 3 machines. As there was no longer a need for quality control as it had been automated.

True, but there are plenty of jobs that need humans in the loop - call centres, R&D, for example. Until some boffins crack the AI problem we'll still need people to talk to and work with.

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I currently contract for a well know high street brand and there are probably 100+ indians on ICT and perhaps 20 UK contractors and the same number of permanent. Now if there were no ICTs the difference would be mostly made up by UK permanent staff including a healthy proportion of graduate trainees.

So IMO the real losers are UK people trying to enter the IT industry, and because of this the UK IT industry generally as there will be so few new entrants. My work these days tends to be either senior developer shepherding ICTs or working for "enlightened" organisations who prefer to use a team of 6-10 ish elite level UK people rather than an army of mid skilled ICTs, and actually this trend is on the increase (which is the only positive thing happening in the industry at the moment).

All in all I wouldnt want to be a job hunting IT grad now which is very sad because 20 years ago it a was a fantastic career to embark on and it was the army of intelligent and motivated people entering the industry at this time that created a world leading industry and huge inward investment to the UK. Now as with everything its being p*ssed away. The reason nothing is being done about it is because the politicians are in the pockets of the big IT consultancies who are the main beneficiary of ICTs.

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I currently contract for a well know high street brand and there are probably 100+ indians on ICT and perhaps 20 UK contractors and the same number of permanent. Now if there were no ICTs the difference would be mostly made up by UK permanent staff including a healthy proportion of graduate trainees.

So IMO the real losers are UK people trying to enter the IT industry, and because of this the UK IT industry generally as there will be so few new entrants. My work these days tends to be either senior developer shepherding ICTs or working for "enlightened" organisations who prefer to use a team of 6-10 ish elite level UK people rather than an army of mid skilled ICTs, and actually this trend is on the increase (which is the only positive thing happening in the industry at the moment).

All in all I wouldnt want to be a job hunting IT grad now which is very sad because 20 years ago it a was a fantastic career to embark on and it was the army of intelligent and motivated people entering the industry at this time that created a world leading industry and huge inward investment to the UK. Now as with everything its being p*ssed away. The reason nothing is being done about it is because the politicians are in the pockets of the big IT consultancies who are the main beneficiary of ICTs.

This is a pretty good summary of the current position

It is the entry level jobs where the next generation of technicians is trained that has really been wiped out in IT.

All fine and dandy for the employers while Indian and other overseas IT workers are cheap but their costs are rising. In fact there is a two pronged threat to the whole process rising inflation in Asia (now running at 10% per annum in India) and the probable long term weakness of sterling and other western currencies.

That free lunch may not be lasting much longer.

In fact in the US there are signs that it may already be over,

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/0f6d8f76-aa29-11df-9367-00144feabdc0.html

Edited by realcrookswearsuits
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But seriously, did anyone ever say it was fair for low skilled jobs either? Two wrongs don't make a right etc.

The rhetoric surrounding the destruction of the low skilled workforce was all about the inevitable march of globalized capital- their misery was a 'price worth paying' for the undoubted benefits that globalization would bring- at least bring to other people.

But as the impact of outsourcing moves up the employment food chain the rhetoric has shifted, suddenly what was a 'price worth paying' is now too high a price to pay.

Had we, as a nation, had a bit more empathy with our fellow citizens as their low skilled work was decimated we might have addressed the globalization fraud sooner- now the momentum is unstoppable.

However the good news for the manual workers is that they will be less exposed to the next wave of job destruction which is the automation phase- this axe will fall on the knowledge workers and their managers.

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All in all I wouldnt want to be a job hunting IT grad now which is very sad because 20 years ago it a was a fantastic career to embark on and it was the army of intelligent and motivated people entering the industry at this time that created a world leading industry and huge inward investment to the UK. Now as with everything its being p*ssed away. The reason nothing is being done about it is because the politicians are in the pockets of the big IT consultancies who are the main beneficiary of ICTs.

I suspect the best IT grads now will be looking to do their own startup rather than taking a traditional 9-5 job

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I used to work for an investment bank & was slung out in 2002. I was a cobol dinosaur with a bit of korn shell thrown in. Was training in Java until that got sent elsewhere. Most of my colleagues went within a year or two. Also due to outsourcing. I was able to get a very basic clerical job in the civil service & have moved up slightly to be on just over the average wage. Now I'll probably get whacked again in the cuts. I hope my kids see sense & leave the country!! Not looking good for the future is it!!!

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What does an IT grad get nowadays, compared to a grad engineer who gets ~£24k?

Going into IT/banking was always a popular choice for a lot of engineer grads because of the good money but I'm glad I never (wish I got paid more, though!). The same sort of thing is happening with engineering, too - the best students are actually coming out of India, and there are a lot of them. Pretty scary...

Edited by guitarman001
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I used to work for an investment bank & was slung out in 2002. I was a cobol dinosaur with a bit of korn shell thrown in. Was training in Java until that got sent elsewhere. Most of my colleagues went within a year or two. Also due to outsourcing. I was able to get a very basic clerical job in the civil service & have moved up slightly to be on just over the average wage. Now I'll probably get whacked again in the cuts. I hope my kids see sense & leave the country!! Not looking good for the future is it!!!

No, not looking good for people with a rubbish skillset. You should have continued training yourself in Java rather than take a dead end job. (Or at the same time if need be.)

Edited by Johnny Storm
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The rhetoric surrounding the destruction of the low skilled workforce was all about the inevitable march of globalized capital- their misery was a 'price worth paying' for the undoubted benefits that globalization would bring- at least bring to other people.

But as the impact of outsourcing moves up the employment food chain the rhetoric has shifted, suddenly what was a 'price worth paying' is now too high a price to pay.

Had we, as a nation, had a bit more empathy with our fellow citizens as their low skilled work was decimated we might have addressed the globalization fraud sooner- now the momentum is unstoppable.

However the good news for the manual workers is that they will be less exposed to the next wave of job destruction which is the automation phase- this axe will fall on the knowledge workers and their managers.

I don't see it that way. It's very hard, or impossible really, to automate any genuine 'knowledge' work. You need too much human intuition and problem solving or language skills. I'm thinking technical R&D, law, medicine, research (arts & science), language translation etc. Those jobs will always need people to do them because machines/AI are simply not good enough and probably never will be in our lifetimes.

This is exactly why outsourcing is so popular - you can't get a machine to do this work, but you can get some guy in India for 1/10th of the price. (Never mind the quality though...)

Personally I never thought outsourcing the low-skill jobs was a good idea either, mainly as I grew up in the North-West so I saw the impact in my town and many others. Anyone who said it didn't matter was/is likely a middle-class nimby who didn't see where it was heading. Or a southerner. :P

The managers will only lose out because they no longer have anyone to manage. But the inefficiencies of outsourcing mean most will still be needed anyway to keep a lookout on the outsourced work. So no real loss there, unfortunately.

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No, not looking good for people with a rubbish skillset. You should have continued training yourself in Java rather than take a dead end job. (Or at the same time if need be.)

Well the thing is, I was 47 then so not much chance of getting a job even with a good skill set in IT. As you may or may not know IT is overtly ageist, especially in the banking sector. As it happens my current salary will peak at about £43k in a few years time (if I don't get whacked in the cuts) so a lot better than being on the dole as a lot of my former colleagues are who were hoping for another IT job. Even now a lot of java jobs are below £40k especially outside of London.

So I have basically an easy job, gold plated pension & a reasonable wage. The mortgage was paid off 14 years ago & due to savings I don't have to work but choose to as its better than watching daytime TV. As for my kids, well they're stuffed & will hopefully be able to find something abroad somewhere.

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So I have basically an easy job, gold plated pension & a reasonable wage. The mortgage was paid off 14 years ago & due to savings I don't have to work but choose to as its better than watching daytime TV. As for my kids, well they're stuffed & will hopefully be able to find something abroad somewhere.

That sounds more like a life plan. :) With no rent / mortgage, the average wage (what is that about £25k?) is more than enough to live a very comfortable life.

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This is worth a read:

PCG Site

The PCG look like they have pulled out all the stops to try and reduce this abuse. Any contractors who suspect abuse is happening are actively encouraged to contact them at the email address at the bottom of this page.

That website hasn't been updated since January 2010. Is this campaign still ongoing?

For what it is worth, I see this regularly at my place of work. Some of the offices I work in are 50% staffed with Indian nationals. It is very depressing and is having a measurable effect on job prospects in the industry.

A thought occurred to me the other day. For the last few years I have been the youngest person on most of my projects. Interesting, no? In case you don't get the implication, this means that I am literally the last man in. I have no new graduates or junior members of the team (from the UK anyway) to train up and pass my knowledge on to.

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Because of the lack of jobs in India people are highly motivated to get any " middle class" job or "crap" one abroad.

Hence the huge effort put into their education , where 10 year olds do calculus etc my son probably hasn't heard of it, [ 10yrs]

Saw a programme in which a train driver job had a exam in which 5 odd thousand sat it.

If these trends due to globilisation come here, jobs will be treated with a respect, unheard of in the West. :ph34r:

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Why are politicians doing this to British workers????????

I just can't understand it other than thinking that they hate ordinary working people and want to destroy the country

:unsure:

I have drawn the same conclusion

It starts in the state education system. You award A* grades to borderline illiterates. The university system is dumbed down because kids educated by the state have such poor academic skills and have no ability to think much beyond beer, football and mong television.

I am quite certain there is a conspiracy to destroy this country and to subjugate the people.

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I don't see it that way. It's very hard, or impossible really, to automate any genuine 'knowledge' work. You need too much human intuition and problem solving or language skills. I'm thinking technical R&D, law, medicine, research (arts & science), language translation etc. Those jobs will always need people to do them because machines/AI are simply not good enough and probably never will be in our lifetimes.

I'm not so sure about that, the super computer which beat Kasparov in 1996 was 11.5GFlops, a 2007 CPU can perform 37GFlops a second. Todays CPUs are pushing 100GFLOPs a second. In little over 13 years the best machine has jumped from 11GFlops to 1.75 petaflops!

Computers also don't need intellegence or to pass a turing test kind of thing either, as with the chess computers which beat Kasparov they can simply brute force us. They can land airplanes without being able to hold a decent conversation.

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That sounds more like a life plan. :) With no rent / mortgage, the average wage (what is that about £25k?) is more than enough to live a very comfortable life.

Would be if I wasn't spending loads on the kids for one thing & another. I'm on about £32k & wife works for the moment so no real financial problems so far. I presume you're in IT then?

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