7 Million Live In Households Where No One Works

[Game_Over]

They have to do something about the culture of not working, maybe big benefit cuts twined with support to get people into work, or even to start businesses and then help employ others.

I believe that if people work, they then in turn care more about their 'stuff' and their surroundings, because they pay for it all, and it suddenly isn't 'free stuff from the government'. Then in turn, we get a better society as everyone takes care of their own little patch of England. If you get me

Yes but how are you going to make people work when there are no jobs?

And unless we leave the EU - 95% of any new jobs created will go to the young unemployed of Europe anyway.

Who would you rather employ - a 50+ year old, obese, ill educated person who hasn't worked for 10 years and who doesn't want to work?

Or a 20 something young Pole or Latvian who is prepared to cheerfully graft 50 hrs a week for minimum wage?

People don't have the faintest idea just how screwed we are IMHO

[ccc]

Sorry but your looking at it completely the wrong way. As someone else said its all about motivation. Would you become a doctor for £6? Of course not. This is simply a less extreme example of that. The earlier poster said the work is hard/tough/demanding thus it should pay a premium over less hard/tough/demaning work. Thats how the economic system should work. But because of globalization and the importation of cheap workers we have short-circuited that balancing mechanism.

What would/should happen is that if the company could not employ uk citizens at that wage, it would be forced to raise it. Before globalization all its competitors would be internal (from the uk) or from western countries, and thus not coming from a work or starve society they would also be paying this higher wage. That would then attract the workers needed. Also given that competition between companies could not rely on wage arbitrage, it would have to be on efficiency. In this way everyone would win.

Instead we broke this risk/reward mechanism and blame it on the dolee's calling them lazy, because the vested interests want it this way because it allows them to continue doing what they are doing. If the masses were told the truth, they would place the blame where it correctly lies and demand change. Above all, the VI's don't want that.

Given the non-conformist nature of people that post here. I'm honestly amazed so many buy and believe the VI line. You'd think they'd know better.

Motivation not to be a lazy sponging waste of space oxygen thief seems to be enough for many people to get off their backsides and do whatever work is available.

You are making excuses IMO. Yes of course globalisation/benefits culture etc.. all have their part of the blame. However a lazy person is a lazy person. We just make it easy for them to get way with it.

[Dorkins]

Its all about motivation. East europeans come from economies where you work or starve by and large and if we recreated that same choice here you would see armies of "dole bludgers" suddenly acquire some phenomenal work ethic.

Another way of looking at this is that by importing cheap labour from do-or-die economies we are actually using the starving people who remain there as "leverage" to provide us with willing workers. If that is deemed as morally acceptable then why not close the borders and start starving our own unemployed - at least that way we save a load of benefit payments.

This is not an accurate understanding of why EEs come to the UK. Poland has a high unemployment rate, around 13% by official measures and no doubt higher in reality. Unemployment benefits are about 178 euros per month, which after cost of living adjustments etc probably equates to about £500 a month here. Not a lot, but survivable. Anyway benefits are low and unemployment is high, so I really don't see any evidence here for your low unemployment benefits = low unemployment theory.

The real reason Poles come to the UK and work for £5.80 an hour is exchange rate arbitrage. Every pound they earn in the UK will buy about three times as much stuff in Poland as it will in the UK. If they can come to the UK, work 60 hour weeks, live in a dorm house and save £500 a month, that cash triples in value as soon as it crosses the border. £6k per year savings for 5 years is £30k, purchasing power in Poland £90k. Five years of hard slog and they are looking at owning a flat outright. So what about a British young person who tried to do the same? Five years of hard slog and they've got £30k, a princely 18% of the average UK house price. 25 years and they can buy that house outright, assuming they haven't had a heart attack or nervous breakdown first. People are not stupid, they can see that the cost of living is such that the incentive to work like a dog isn't there. So they slack off and take it easy. Why work yourself into an early grave for no reward?

[goldbug9999]

People are not stupid, they can see that the cost of living is such that the incentive to work like a dog isn't there. So they slack off and take it easy. Why work yourself into an early grave for no reward?

So ... its all about motivation .then ..

[goldbug9999]

Motivation not to be a lazy sponging waste of space oxygen thief seems to be enough for many people to get off their backsides and do whatever work is available.

Eastern europe has way more than its fair share of sponging wasters - and those ore the one with jobs.

[PopGun]

Oh no, more posters in this thread falling for the all locals = lazy, all foreigners = hard working/technically superior propaganda.

Nothing to do with the facts that (unlike 25/30 years ago):

There’s three times as many people chasing half as many jobs

Ten times more bureaucracy involved in being an employer

Housing, tax and benefit levels ment it actually paid to work, even on low pay (good luck in getting a £90,000 mortgage for a two up two down on minimum wage)

Culture of expecting one employee to work long hours of 60 a week badly, instead of two working 30 hours more productively.

Culture of unrealistic expectations of self and others, that labels anyone not driving an Audi/BMW/Merc as 'a loser'.

I mean come on, is laziness the reason why companies are shutting down factories, call centres and plants here, and moving them abroad?!? Or could it maybe in fact that we’ve allowed ourselves to be priced out of the market?

Most workers find themselves stuck in a globalised economic limbo: Earning too much to compete against Asian wage slaves, and imported labour, yet never hoping to earn enough for modest housing. So why bother?

The Daily Mail readers can’t have both full employment and sky high house prices!

[PopGun]

So ... its all about motivation .then ..

Or instead of rambling on, I could of read this and gone +1

[Dorkins]

So ... its all about motivation .then ..

Two types of motivation: carrot and stick. Poles are coming here to work for carrots. That's why they work hard and are keen and reliable. Brits can't afford houses whether they work or not. So cut their benefits and hit them with the stick. Now what? Will you suddenly create millions of hard-working, keen and reliable Brits? No. You'll create a group of desperate people crushed between a high cost of living, a lack of jobs, and low wages for those who can find work. They will turn to crime, violence, and drink and drugs. We already have a lot of this today. Cutting benefits now will only make it worse.

Poles and native Brits are in completely different situations, it's simplistic to say "the Poles will do these jobs for these wages, why won't you?" The reason the Poles will do it is that £5.80 is a lot more money to a Pole. Offer the Brits £15 an hour and see what they say then.

[billybong]

What Gordon Brown wrote as a student:

Link

Young Brown had his own "five-year plan": a council takeover of shops, pubs and cafes,

And as Chancellor his 10 year plan for the banks worked spot on.

Edited September 10, 2010 by billybong

[goldbug9999]

Two types of motivation: carrot and stick. Poles are coming here to work for carrots. T

...

Poles and native Brits are in completely different situations, it's simplistic to say "the Poles will do these jobs for these wages, why won't you?" The reason the Poles will do it is that £5.80 is a lot more money to a Pole. Offer the Brits £15 an hour and see what they say then.

I accept that to some extent. We certainly arn't going to get low-med skill jobs paying £15/hour so long as we let immigrants from poorer countries in. Also maybe our economy could stand to pay £10-15 for these jobs if taxes were lower (because the benefits bill was lower ...).

[alexw]

Motivation not to be a lazy sponging waste of space oxygen thief seems to be enough for many people to get off their backsides and do whatever work is available.

You are making excuses IMO. Yes of course globalisation/benefits culture etc.. all have their part of the blame. However a lazy person is a lazy person. We just make it easy for them to get way with it.

Gahh sometimes its like talking to a brick wall. Its like you have read what i have written but due to your idiological bias just can't seem to understand it.

Answer these questions and reflect on the answers.

How do we direct people to certain jobs above others in a capitalist economy? Whats the method we use? Wages perhaps? How have wages for these low level jobs changed over time in real terms? Has it, perhaps, gone down? What happens if you break the link between risk/reward as we have done for uk workers taking these jobs? What effect would this have on uk workers motivation for taking these jobs? If you could bring in workers to take these jobs whom due to wage arbitrage were very keen, whom would the employers choose? The lowest quartile of uk workers or top quartile of foreigners? Do these reasons explain why all these jobs were done by UK workers before and not now?

[ccc]

Eastern europe has way more than its fair share of sponging wasters - and those ore the one with jobs.

No doubt about that. However the ones that come to the UK to work are clearly the pick of the bunch.

Oh no, more posters in this thread falling for the all locals = lazy, all foreigners = hard working/technically superior propaganda.

Nobody is saying that. Can you point to anywhere that has stated that point ?

I am just saying that there are way more lazy people in this country than there even were 10 years ago. I don't see how anyone could dispute this. Laziness is an epidemic in this country.

As I have already said before. Go to a station/airport and do the stairs/elevator test for a short flight of stairs.

There is all the proof you need of the general laziness of people in this country. It is no great surprise it spills over into work as well.

This is not propaganda - it is the truth. How do we fix it ? ****** knows. However not paying people to be lazy would be a good start.

And all this nonsense we hear about how they will all turn to crime and burglary. ********. The sort of person who happily breaks into another persons house will be doing it anyway. Don't cut their benefits so they are literally starving. Just cut them so they can't afford a 50 inch widescreen anymore. Not rocket science.

And as for the lack of jobs ? Again - for many areas in this country nonsense. Plenty of shitty jobs out there. They should get off their lazy arses and do them. I would, and I have.

[Dorkins]

Plenty of shitty jobs out there. They should get off their lazy arses and do them. I would, and I have.

My big local Tescos has a printed sign on the wall saying "we have no vacancies at present". It's been up for about a year now. I'm not convinced there are millions of shitty jobs out there.

[ccc]

Gahh sometimes its like talking to a brick wall. Its like you have read what i have written but due to your idiological bias just can't seem to understand it.

Answer these questions and reflect on the answers.

How do we direct people to certain jobs above others in a capitalist economy? Whats the method we use? Wages perhaps? How have wages for these low level jobs changed over time in real terms? Has it, perhaps, gone down? What happens if you break the link between risk/reward as we have done for uk workers taking these jobs? What effect would this have on uk workers motivation for taking these jobs? If you could bring in workers to take these jobs whom due to wage arbitrage were very keen, whom would the employers choose? The lowest quartile of uk workers or top quartile of foreigners? Do these reasons explain why all these jobs were done by UK workers before and not now?

I agree that the attraction of working for minimal wages is less than today. I understand that. However shit happens. Wages go up, wages go down. People that want to work and do something with their life will go out and do it in either situation.

I am listening to what you are saying - you are not listening to me.

Are you honestly saying the lowest quartile of UK workers simply cannot get jobs due to them all being done by Polish University graduates ?

IMO that is just an excuse for the laziness endemic in this country.

[ccc]

My big local Tescos has a printed sign on the wall saying "we have no vacancies at present". It's been up for about a year now. I'm not convinced there are millions of shitty jobs out there.

Of course. It depends on the area. In my area anyway there are stacks of shitty jobs. And yet I still hear constant moaning from scumbags that there is no work.

I am sure there are areas in the UK where it is seriously difficult to get even a shitty job. However there are others where it is not. Yet in both sets of areas you have a large number of unemployed all saying the same thing. That is enough to tell me they are just making excuses. The vast majority of them anyway.

[alexw]

I accept that to some extent. We certainly arn't going to get low-med skill jobs paying £15/hour so long as we let immigrants from poorer countries in. Also maybe our economy could stand to pay £10-15 for these jobs if taxes were lower (because the benefits bill was lower ...).

For all the employers screaming that they cant afford to pay more, the returns to capital vs wages has gone from the historic average of 40/60 to 47/53. Thus thats 7% of GDP that 'should' be going to workers but instead goes to shareholders.

There is also the greater stratification of wages we have seen. We dont have a shortage of managers/executives/highly paid proffesionals. If anything there is a surplus of individuals for these positions. But we do have a shortage of UK workers taking up low paid jobs that are strenuous/hard/demanding. So if the system was working correctly the wages for the first group would decrease in real terms while those for the second would increase. Of course the first group have gamed the system so this doesnt happen, and in doing so have broken it.

[aa3]

Because of automation and offshoring, eventually the majority of households will have no one who works full time. The real jobs like railroads, electric plants, factories, refineries, port workers, etc.. we just don't need so many people working anymore.

One poster was saying how containerization reduced the number who work at ports loading and unloading cargo in the UK from 130,000 to 14,000. Even as the total volume of goods dramatically increased.

What we have now is a lot of marginal jobs that are getting more marginal by the year. And a bunch of public sector non-jobs.

[alexw]

I agree that the attraction of working for minimal wages is less than today. I understand that. However shit happens. Wages go up, wages go down. People that want to work and do something with their life will go out and do it in either situation.

I am listening to what you are saying - you are not listening to me.

Are you honestly saying the lowest quartile of UK workers simply cannot get jobs due to them all being done by Polish University graduates ?

IMO that is just an excuse for the laziness endemic in this country.

That is very naive. People respond to the price signals they are given. Its one of the fundamental basics of a capitalistic society. You ask its citizens to respond to the price signals of everything else from what foods they buy, to where they go on holiday. That you and I post on a board about house prices is in fact a response to one of those price signals. It pemeates everything else we do, and yet seemingly you ask the lowest quartile not to respond to price signals when taking up work?? Do you understand how inane and naive that sounds?

And no i did not say all of them. But a significant percentage of UK workers can nolonger get these jobs even when they want them because eastern europeans are or are perceived to be much better candidates for these jobs. The reasons for this are varied, vary from job to job, and go from legal to downright illegal. Examples vary from being better educated (top quartile vs lower/lower middle quartile), to more motivated due to currency arbitrage effects, to easier to bully/less likely to complain, to employment agencies that skim paypackets which uk workers would not put up with.

Edited September 10, 2010 by alexw

[jplevene]

OK, so it's from the Daily Fail, but I think the numbers are still correct according to the ONS

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1310220/Seven-million-live-households-works.html#ixzz0yykDXN58

What people never comment is the political cunning of what Blair and Brown did by giving such generous handouts on the benefits system. This (as well as the availability of credit) caused the growth in the UK as these unemployed people where not consumers until Blair came along. All of a sudden, the unemployed have a good income (with credit cards) and are now serious consumers, and with such a huge amount of serious new consumers, this helped towards the growth. The thing is, it was unsustainable and has come crashing down like a ton of bricks.

The Blair policy will have implications for years to come as now we have generations of lazy slobs who don't want to work.

We must pay these huge costs just so that Blair & Brown could buy votes.

[stormymonday_2011]

Having multiple generations within a family who have never done a days work seems to have been the norm for the British aristocracy down the centuries. Maybe everyone else is just catching up.

Edited September 10, 2010 by realcrookswearsuits

[miko]

Of course. It depends on the area. In my area anyway there are stacks of shitty jobs. And yet I still hear constant moaning from scumbags that there is no work.

Are you sure there are stacks of shitty jobs in your area ? I live in the so im told " the Affluent south east " and thought that there were stacks of shitty jobs untill I became redundant . Im gratefull that I have found a job now l but when I was unemployed I saw a few shitty jobs and stacks of people applying for each one , know many others that found themselves in the same position .

[ccc]

Are you sure there are stacks of shitty jobs in your area ? I live in the so im told " the Affluent south east " and thought that there were stacks of shitty jobs untill I became redundant . Im gratefull that I have found a job now l but when I was unemployed I saw a few shitty jobs and stacks of people applying for each one , know many others that found themselves in the same position .

Yes. Lots of shops you walk past with little shitty adverts stuck in the window asking for help. No place has this sort of advert unless it is desperate. I am sure other places are different.

[200p]

The real reason Poles come to the UK and work for £5.80 an hour is exchange rate arbitrage. Every pound they earn in the UK will buy about three times as much stuff in Poland as it will in the UK. If they can come to the UK, work 60 hour weeks, live in a dorm house and save £500 a month, that cash triples in value as soon as it crosses the border. £6k per year savings for 5 years is £30k, purchasing power in Poland £90k. Five years of hard slog and they are looking at owning a flat outright. So what about a British young person who tried to do the same? Five years of hard slog and they've got £30k, a princely 18% of the average UK house price. 25 years and they can buy that house outright, assuming they haven't had a heart attack or nervous breakdown first. People are not stupid, they can see that the cost of living is such that the incentive to work like a dog isn't there. So they slack off and take it easy. Why work yourself into an early grave for no reward?

You can buy a decent 2 bed flat for £30K (or rent £200 pcm) so I have been told from a Polish colleague.

[aa3]

It makes sense that over time we are all becoming like the aristocrats of days past. Instead of exploiting the labour of human beings.. we are exploiting the labour of machinery.

[ccc]

That is very naive. People respond to the price signals they are given. Its one of the fundamental basics of a capitalistic society. You ask its citizens to respond to the price signals of everything else from what foods they buy, to where they go on holiday. That you and I post on a board about house prices is in fact a response to one of those price signals. It pemeates everything else we do, and yet seemingly you ask the lowest quartile not to respond to price signals when taking up work?? Do you understand how inane and naive that sounds?

And no i did not say all of them. But a significant percentage of UK workers can nolonger get these jobs even when they want them because eastern europeans are or are perceived to be much better candidates for these jobs. The reasons for this are varied, vary from job to job, and go from legal to downright illegal. Examples vary from being better educated (top quartile vs lower/lower middle quartile), to more motivated due to currency arbitrage effects, to easier to bully/less likely to complain, to employment agencies that skim paypackets which uk workers would not put up with.

The scum bags who wander around Edinburgh with not an interest in EVER working do not consider price signals. You could offer them a 50k job and they would turn their nose up at it. THey are simply too lazy to get off their backsides. I think the number of people in the UK who fall into this category is in the millions.

THere are others who clearly want to work but for who there are barriers as you describe. I totally agree. However please don't tell me there are not millions in this country who are just lazy full stop. It is a bona fide 100% fact.

Edited September 11, 2010 by ccc