France: Protests Over Pensions Bring Over A Million Onto Boulevards

[ralphmalph]

Edited September 8, 2010 by ralphmalph

[ralphmalph]

I could not get the images in one post so I posted them separarately. Hope you can work out where there should be in the original post.

[Game_Over]

So because of their powerful unions, decent renting laws etc

The whole of France can afford to save 16% of their take home pay (on Average)

Makes you sick how we let "Unregulated" Big Business take us over in the UK!

Exactly

In the Soviet Union everyone had millions of Roubles in the bank

And every time the miners went on strike they were given a 40% pay rise

Makes you wonder why the economy collapsed when everyone had so many savings.

[campervanman]

There is a lot of rubbish being spouted on here about La Belle France.

First off the French pay less taxes than the UK. If true why does France year after year top the misery league for tax. (hint to the Francophiles being number one on the list is not good for disposable income)

Second myth France never had a property bubble and property is cheap.

Looks like a bubble to me.

French banks did not do irresonsible lending.

http://www.capital-chronicle.com/2009/03/french-net-household-wealth-to-drop-for.html

If you read the above link it states that across France "long terms loans (maninly mortgages) have risen from 26% disposable income to 69% of disposable income in 2008.

69% OF DISPOSABLE LENDING JUST TO PAY THE MORTGAGE and this is the average for a country. If that is not irresponsible high multiple v income mortgage lending, then I do not know what is.

Another myth the French rent. See link about 58% own thier own home.

Myth - French workers strike and get the benefits.

I would strike and refuse to work if I had not shared any of the benefits. Unlike the English worker who just has to give a quick BJ to the boss the French worker has been gangbanged by the elites who over the period of 25 years have given the French work scraps from the table in terms of pay rises whilst loading thier own pockets.

If you look closer at your 'misery league' you will see that most of the tax burden is borne not by the individual but by corporations. I pay no more than 14% on my income below 40k, there is no road tax in France, Tax d'habitation is about half the UK council tax, vat will soon be less than the UK and social charges (national insurance) for individuals is at around the same rate as the UK. Of course as an expat I only speak from personal experience . As for your ludicrous interpretation that 69% of disposable income is used to pay the mortgage, are you serious?

[greengreen]

And they retire earlier than you, and their pensions are better than yours, and the young can afford houses and they pay less in tax + decent roads, public transport and healhtcare. Why do you think that is?

In my experience, I agree with some of your points: They do retire earlier, get better pensions, more affordable public transport and good healthcare. But housing is not affordable and tax is excessive. Roads are good but expensive especially if you use the payage.

Without giving away too many details, I have spent a considerable amount of time in the UK and France (amongst other countries) and housing in France - Cote d'Azur and Paris is excessive, I think there is a bubble in France comparable to the UK, the young find it hard to buy property. There was a recent book by a french graduate who ended up working as a checkout girl in a supermarket:

Checkout by Anna Sam

they face the same problems as some UK grads.

Also have a look at seloger using the petitscailloux plug in and you can see how long property is sitting around for. I have seen that comparing property in a good borough in London to an equivalently nice area in the suburbs of Paris, France is as, if not more, expensive bearing in mind recent exchange rate movements.

Regarding tax, the french tax system is unbelievable, their tax rates are extreme. Dont even think of trying to set up a business, the French do not want entrepreneurs, I have considerably more respect for someone setting up a successful business in France that I do for someone in the UK or US. I sometimes think that they have designed this system to stop any social mobility within France, and to be honest there is more of a ruling elite in France than there is in the UK. Wealth tax, on assest over Euro650k. So a modest house, assets and some savings for retirement and you are considered wealthy. No wonder so many high earning Frenchies dont live there. London in particular, Hong Kong, New York all have significantly high numbers of wealthy French residents, with holiday homes back in France. This allows them to avoid wealth taxes and accrue wealth in a lower tax environment than back in France.

While I think that its great that the french stand up and are heard, I think the reality is, their system must change as they simply cannot afford to carry on as they are (same as the UK).

The best option, I think is to work outside France, save, etc and then retire to France, passing assets appropriately to children (if possible) to avoid wealth taxes in France.

[ralphmalph]

If you look closer at your 'misery league' you will see that most of the tax burden is borne not by the individual but by corporations. I pay no more than 14% on my income below 40k, there is no road tax in France, Tax d'habitation is about half the UK council tax, vat will soon be less than the UK and social charges (national insurance) for individuals is at around the same rate as the UK. Of course as an expat I only speak from personal experience . As for your ludicrous interpretation that 69% of disposable income is used to pay the mortgage, are you serious?

http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/ipweb/ip1229/ip1229.pdf

69% is halfway down the left hand side page 3.

You posted that taxes are lower in France than the UK. The misery index on personal tax in France is 51. in the UK 40. Employee social security in France 15 in UK 10. So TAXES IN FRANCE ARE HIGHER THAN THE UK.

Your personal situation may mean that you pay less but that does not mean it is true for all.

Edited September 8, 2010 by ralphmalph

[_w_]

That isn't what it says in card/borrowing quote above and doesn't have any common factor with the common worker/manager class who I know in France.

Quit defending the Sleazy City and their "Unregulated" 'debt lure' merchants(sic)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm underlining the fact that top execs are even sleazier than the so-called anglo-saxons. It wasn't meant as a reflection on average workers. The French deceive most including themselves with their version of socialism.

[_w_]

To borrow nin the UK or in France?

As for the worlds highest paid ceo's, which ceo's, which companies? By any measure France has less inequality than the UK:

http://en.wikipedia....income_equality

It also applies a wealth tax on assets over around 650k (including property) Presumably you are against that?

To borrow in France.

Another anecdote that will make you laugh. While buying cases of champagne for business associates last Christmas I was offered to pay in 6 monthly installments.

France is drowning in credit.

[_w_]

To borrow nin the UK or in France?

As for the worlds highest paid ceo's, which ceo's, which companies? By any measure France has less inequality than the UK:

http://en.wikipedia....income_equality

CAC40 companies.

It also applies a wealth tax on assets over around 650k (including property) Presumably you are against that?

I personally don't like it. It's hard enough making a big enough return after tax to get inflation protection in the days of ZIRP; the wealth tax makes it almost impossible. I'm not against tax in particular but that one is really tricky. I hope they don't implement this in the UK.

[campervanman]

http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/ipweb/ip1229/ip1229.pdf

69% is halfway down the left hand side page 3.

Yes I know where it is. I question your interpretation. Are you suggesting that the average person spends 69% of their disposable income on mortgage repayments?

As for misery indexes, try this one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1240988/France-tops-list-best-places-live-world-fifth-year-row--Britain-languishes-25th.html

of course this one is based on a bit more than the typical Brit 'live to work' one dimensional thinking that happiness can only be achieved through wealth.

[erranta]

In my experience, I agree with some of your points: They do retire earlier, get better pensions, more affordable public transport and good healthcare. But housing is not affordable and tax is excessive. Roads are good but expensive especially if you use the payage.

Without giving away too many details, I have spent a considerable amount of time in the UK and France (amongst other countries) and housing in France - Cote d'Azur and Paris is excessive, I think there is a bubble in France comparable to the UK, the young find it hard to buy property. There was a recent book by a french graduate who ended up working as a checkout girl in a supermarket:

Checkout by Anna Sam

they face the same problems as some UK grads.

Also have a look at seloger using the petitscailloux plug in and you can see how long property is sitting around for. I have seen that comparing property in a good borough in London to an equivalently nice area in the suburbs of Paris, France is as, if not more, expensive bearing in mind recent exchange rate movements.

Regarding tax, the french tax system is unbelievable, their tax rates are extreme. Dont even think of trying to set up a business, the French do not want entrepreneurs, I have considerably more respect for someone setting up a successful business in France that I do for someone in the UK or US. I sometimes think that they have designed this system to stop any social mobility within France, and to be honest there is more of a ruling elite in France than there is in the UK. Wealth tax, on assest over Euro650k. So a modest house, assets and some savings for retirement and you are considered wealthy. No wonder so many high earning Frenchies dont live there. London in particular, Hong Kong, New York all have significantly high numbers of wealthy French residents, with holiday homes back in France. This allows them to avoid wealth taxes and accrue wealth in a lower tax environment than back in France.

While I think that its great that the french stand up and are heard, I think the reality is, their system must change as they simply cannot afford to carry on as they are (same as the UK).

The best option, I think is to work outside France, save, etc and then retire to France, passing assets appropriately to children (if possible) to avoid wealth taxes in France.

You just DON't GET it - do you?

The high taxes and national insurance are levied on Business - so greedy freeloaders like 'shareholders' get a smaller slice of the pie!

Which blows Ralphmalphs Misery chart out of the water - it's an Elites BUSINESS misery chart!

Money is more fairly distributed - which gives eveyone a better lifestyle and amazingly savings in their bank accounts (they don't even bother with "CREDIT"(DEBT) CARDS!)

So all that goes on in France - yet they still have businesses and people willing to invest in businesses - blows everything we are brainwashed with by the City Elites & their Govt mouthpieces out of the water - who have conned the UK Nation into an Anglicised form of the "American dream"!

WINNER TAKES ALL (That's the USA Dream end result & ALL you have to remember!)

Edited September 8, 2010 by erranta

[erranta]

Yes I know where it is. I question your interpretation. Are you suggesting that the average person spends 69% of their disposable income on mortgage repayments?

As for misery indexes, try this one:

http://www.dailymail...ishes-25th.html

of course this one is based on a bit more than the typical Brit 'live to work' one dimensional thinking that happiness can only be achieved through wealth.

This is a direct result of Elites ransacking the UK and hoarding it's wealth into ever fewer hands!

Winner takes ALL

Britain has dropped to 25th place on a list of the best places in the world to live - behind countries such as the Czech Republic, Lithuania and Uruguay.

While France tops the poll for the fifth year running

The Quality of Life Index, published by International Living magazine for the 30th year, says the French live life to the full, while Britons are over-worked.

[redwine]

http://petitscailloux.com/download/petitscailloux.xpi

The new plug in for petitscailloux two days ago

The site was down for over a week but its back on (a new version)

Going back to the OP French Pensions the problem with pensions is that the vast majority of the French do not have a full pension

Once you are over 50 years old companies in France tend to sack the over 50's its very simple you are made unemployed by what they call economic redundancy

Its nearly always impossible to fight against this in a court and i have seen this happen

France has the highest suicide rate in the world for men over 50 years old (no job)

As for the great French Healthcare system do not forget that you pay to go and see a doctor actually you pay for your healthcare

If you are out of the system then god help you !

Is it really a super healthcare system ?

Nobody i know here says so (the French) but wasn't this the advert that the British EAs were using to those that they were selling French property to?

The laws were changed in 2007 you pay or your out

The higher quality of life ?

Really give me an example?

Apart from sitting around getting p*ssed all day long in the middle of nowhere probably due to boredom!

You need cash to live in France there are bills to pay food to buy etc

Otherwise you might end up begging outside of Aldi (like i saw today)

Less stress i suppose but not much fun

Mass unemployment,growing poverty ,urban violence,low wages and thats if you have a job,high taxes

Welcome to France the real France

Happy France for the British Expats at least for those who are still here it seems that the vast majority are leaving

[erranta]

http://petitscaillou...itscailloux.xpi

The new plug in for petitscailloux two days ago

The site was down for over a week but its back on (a new version)

Going back to the OP French Pensions the problem with pensions is that the vast majority of the French do not have a full pension

Once you are over 50 years old companies in France tend to sack the over 50's its very simple you are made unemployed by what they call economic redundancy

Its nearly always impossible to fight against this in a court and i have seen this happen

France has the highest suicide rate in the world for men over 50 years old (no job)

As for the great French Healthcare system do not forget that you pay to go and see a doctor actually you pay for your healthcare

If you are out of the system then god help you !

Is it really a super healthcare system ?

Nobody i know here says so (the French) but wasn't this the advert that the British EAs were using to those that they were selling French property to?

The laws were changed in 2007 you pay or your out

The higher quality of life ?

Really give me an example?

Apart from sitting around getting p*ssed all day long in the middle of nowhere probably due to boredom!

You need cash to live in France there are bills to pay food to buy etc

Otherwise you might end up begging outside of Aldi (like i saw today)

Less stress i suppose but not much fun

Mass unemployment,growing poverty ,urban violence,low wages and thats if you have a job,high taxes

Welcome to France the real France

Happy France for the British Expats at least for those who are still here it seems that the vast majority are leaving

It's all relative though! Every country is suffering but Look @ the above survey!

Any foreign resident has to pay medics till 60yrs - fair enough.

Blits are leaving coz they were/are being stuffed by £ to € exchange rate on savings/retirement income.

Same happening in Spain & elsewhere!

[Game_Over]

You just DON't GET it - do you?

The high taxes and national insurance are levied on Business - so greedy freeloaders like 'shareholders' get a smaller slice of the pie!

Which blows Ralphmalphs Misery chart out of the water - it's an Elites BUSINESS misery chart!

Money is more fairly distributed - which gives eveyone a better lifestyle and amazingly savings in their bank accounts (they don't even bother with "CREDIT"(DEBT) CARDS!)

So all that goes on in France - yet they still have businesses and people willing to invest in businesses - blows everything we are brainwashed with by the City Elites & their Govt mouthpieces out of the water - who have conned the UK Nation into an Anglicised form of the "American dream"!

WINNER TAKES ALL (That's the USA Dream end result & ALL you have to remember!)

Oh Dear

What are you going to say when the the Euro falls apart and France is forced to face up to economic reality

It will happen

[Si1]

What are you going to say when the the Euro falls apart and France is forced to face up to economic reality

Alors! Zut! Mon Dieu!

(Je vais prendre mon manteau)

[Authoritarian]

The socialist answer to everything is to have a protest.

They can protest all they want, but it won't magic any money into their empty bank acount.

[erranta]

Oh Dear

What are you going to say when the the Euro falls apart and France is forced to face up to economic reality

It will happen

French people, make French cars, for French car companies, who sell them to France + rest of Europe! Nuff said

[winkie]

IMO Pensions are the biggest elephant in the room...forget unemployment and job security...it is the pensions that are unaffordable they will be paid, but looking into the future will not be paid as promised....all pensions.

[redwine]

French people, make French cars, for French car companies, who sell them to France + rest of Europe! Nuff said

Many French cars are made in Ex Yougoslavia and Romania eg Logan

Having said that not all of them

The family Peugeot own Peugeot etc

Bienvenue dans le business Francaise Nuff said

[erranta]

Many French cars are made in Ex Yougoslavia and Romania eg Logan

Having said that not all of them

The family Peugeot own Peugeot etc

Bienvenue dans le business Francaise Nuff said

The piss take is

what Blitish owned major car companies do we have left with headquarters in the UK where worldwide sales cash can be siphoned back to?

The French make a mockery of us - just raising the pension age to 62yrs!

Edited September 8, 2010 by erranta

[winkie]

The piss take is

what Blitish owned major car companies do we have left with headquarters in the UK where worldwide sales cash can be siphoned back to?

The French make a mockery of us - just raising the pension age to 62yrs!

I was in France recently, they drive, Citron, Peugeot, and Renaults they buy French, they put their money where their mouth is....we seemed to have sold what we had to the highest bidder.

[erranta]

Alors! Zut! Mon Dieu!

(Je vais prendre mon manteau)

You're part of a CULT - like ALL the other Cults!

Top-down 'BLIND' obedience from the rabid Earth-bound 'madmen' who 'place themselves above all'!

Threats to life and family if you leave - with intrusive, incessant 'reminders'

Threats to life (lop-tops) if you 'divulge' the so-called 'secrets' of the cult!

Look up the other bad factors of being part of a Cult-life!

Edited September 8, 2010 by erranta

[erranta]

I was in France recently, they drive, Citron, Peugeot, and Renaults they buy French, they put their money where their mouth is....we seemed to have sold what we had to the highest bidder.

Try " The suCCession of false govts (VIcariously) pretending to work for the UK Nation, gave frEE reign to a handful of elites to sell out and destroy the country's manufacturing base (and continue to do so - CADBURYS)

It was/is also carried out by false demands by 'plants' in the Union echelons!

[Ah-so]

I was in France recently, they drive, Citron, Peugeot, and Renaults they buy French, they put their money where their mouth is....we seemed to have sold what we had to the highest bidder.

And the marvellous thing for French car manufacturers is that French cars wear out after 10 years and are the most unreliable on the road. This means that the customers keep coming back for more while keeping mechanics in work in the intervening period. Genius.