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6.1 Million Employed In The Public Sector


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I wondered why we don't just pay them less and not bother taxing them. More efficient than paying them more and then taking it back? And they earn the exact same amount to take home either way.

I suppose because it gives the impression that they actually contrubute to wealth creation and it creates tens of thousands more public sector jobs.

The reality is that no one in the public sector actually pays any tax or contributes 1 penny towards their pension.

This is the key reason why the public finances are now bankrupt and addressing the problem is going to lead to widespread social unrest IMO.

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The reality is that no one in the public sector actually pays any tax

Of course they do. Even avoiding your logical fallacy about income tax, they pay VAT, stamp duty, alcohol, tobacco, fuel and car tax etc etc etc

or contributes 1 penny towards their pension.

They do however contribute to the pension of everyone who works for every company they buy goods and services from ;)

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I suppose because it gives the impression that they actually contrubute to wealth creation and it creates tens of thousands more public sector jobs.

The reality is that no one in the public sector actually pays any tax or contributes 1 penny towards their pension.

This is the key reason why the public finances are now bankrupt and addressing the problem is going to lead to widespread social unrest IMO.

If I train someone to use Excel and they pay me £1000 am I a private sector wealth generating entrepreunerial Tory poster boy?

If I am a teacher and I train someone to read am I a public sector leech who contributes nothing to the economy of the country?

Dogma is great.

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nonsense. If the public sector contributes, then we dont need private sector.

As it happens, it contributes FAR less than is costs, so whatever the proportions, public sector is a drain.

Not saying some services are not needed, they have to be paid for as nobody works for nothing...but 1 in 3?

Well this is the key point.

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If I train someone to use Excel and they pay me £1000 am I a private sector wealth generating entrepreunerial Tory poster boy?

If I am a teacher and I train someone to read am I a public sector leech who contributes nothing to the economy of the country?

Dogma is great.

....teachers like doctors are part of the public sector because they are necessary ....teachers in the past ensured the continuity of advancing standards enabling the country to compete and survive ....they are needed more than ever now....when people complain about the public sector they are concerned about the needless waste displayed e.g Chief Executives and Directors of Local Councils on mind bending remuneration schemes unaffordable at any time not just during austerity ...and the many strange positions and jobs they create....no ....people are not complaining about teachers ...... :rolleyes:

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The Medical Research Council is a 100% publically funded government owned body.

The staff at the MRC have made discoveries that have completely changed the world and created entire industries that have generated thousands of productive jobs.

Take one example of Antibody Technology.

All the research and work was done with public money.

The ideas were patented and spun out into a company which was then sold off.

Lots of companies now use the technology and generate money for the privately owned company (now US owned) but based in the UK near the MRC

Can one of the "private good - public bad" types explain who created the wealth, at what point, and whether the company would be better being state owned or having been sold off?

No, the Medical research council is entirely funded out of wealth created by the private sector.

Shame we might have to disband them to pay bloated salaries, pensions and redundancy to other public sector staff, but there it is.

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If I train someone to use Excel and they pay me £1000 am I a private sector wealth generating entrepreunerial Tory poster boy?

If I am a teacher and I train someone to read am I a public sector leech who contributes nothing to the economy of the country?

Dogma is great.

I think you will find that parents teach kids to read

And if they don't bother children leave school barely literate.

As other people have said the key point is the net cost of public services

Once they cost more than they contribute then something has to be cut.

On top of that, we currently have over 1 Trillion of completely unfunded public sector pensions liabilities

And if this doesn't scare you rigid then I'm afraid you don't understand the magnitude of the hole Nu Labour have left us in.

Dogma is what got us into this situation and the road back to sanity will be long, hard and very painful unfortunately.

:blink:

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Oh and for the economically illiterate on this thread - NO ONE in the public sector actually pays ANY tax

They just give the government some of the money which it stole from the private sector back

Perhaps someone from the left could explain what value is added to the economy by the tens of thousands of people in HMRC who are employed collecting tax off public sector employees?

:blink:

Pray tell what fantastic wealth creating job do you perform that is so worthwhile ?

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....teachers like doctors are part of the public sector because they are necessary ....teachers in the past ensured the continuity of advancing standards enabling the country to compete and survive ....they are needed more than ever now....when people complain about the public sector they are concerned about the needless waste displayed e.g Chief Executives and Directors of Local Councils on mind bending remuneration schemes unaffordable at any time not just during austerity ...and the many strange positions and jobs they create....no ....people are not complaining about teachers ...... :rolleyes:

I think everyone accepts that publicly funded education up to age 16 is necessary

And also a certain level of healthcare and welfare provision

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With the private sector I can choose who I use and what I pay....where I shop, where I buy my fuel, who does my plumbing or decorating......with the public sector I have no choices...I have to pay for services I do not necessarily feel gives value for money.. I see the waste, I speak to people who work in the departments that can confirm waste, and the overpaid, but have no power to do anything about it......they are a law unto themselves. ;)

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No, the Medical research council is entirely funded out of wealth created by the private sector.

Shame we might have to disband them to pay bloated salaries, pensions and redundancy to other public sector staff, but there it is.

If I import something made in China for £500 and sell it to someone here taking a for £1000 am I a wealth creator?

What if I sell the goods to the public sector?

If I get paid a salary by the government and invent something that the government sells for £1b am I a wealth creator?

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If I import something made in China for £500 and sell it to someone here taking a for £1000 am I a wealth creator?

What if I sell the goods to the public sector?

If I get paid a salary by the government and invent something that the government sells for £1b am I a wealth creator?

by moving a product through from manufacture to final sales point, you are part of the wealth creation process.

The government is entirely paid for out of wealth. If you invent something, then it is sold, then that also is wealth. It is not normally the task of government to go about creating wealth..unless they see it as their task to steal assets from other Sovereigns...but thats not wealth creation as a whole

Having something of value is wealth....it is debateable whether manufacturing a Bloo Loo purse and selling for £2..its utility value, and buying a Gucci purse for £2000 that the wealth of the World is £1998 more because of one more Gucci rather than the Bloo Loo Utility purse.

I would argue thats £1998 wasted.

Edited by Bloo Loo
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Pray tell what fantastic wealth creating job do you perform that is so worthwhile ?

I took redundancy 6 years ago after 25 years unbroken employment and have not worked since because under Nu Labour unless you earned way above the average income you were actually worse off than the 8 million people who are now 'economically inactive'

Please see the 'why earn more money' thread for more details.

I have spent most of my time trying to get my 3 kids through the rats maze that is the state education system.

2 are now doing science degrees at a top 5 Russell Group university and 1 is just starting their A levels.

TBH I am looking forward to working again once the Coalition government have sorted out the tax and benefit system cos I am getting bored now

Although it is so f*cked up that it will probably take them a whole term to even scratch the surface unfortunately.

:)

Edited to add that it wasn't an intentional decision. I decided to take redundancy and have a 1 year break with the money but at the end of the year I actually had more money than I started with and so it went on. This is actually how most people end up 'economically inactive' and illustrates what a perverted and disgusting system Nu Labour created.

Edited by Game_Over
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With the private sector I can choose who I use and what I pay....where I shop, where I buy my fuel, who does my plumbing or decorating......with the public sector I have no choices...I have to pay for services I do not necessarily feel gives value for money.. I see the waste, I speak to people who work in the departments that can confirm waste, and the overpaid, but have no power to do anything about it......they are a law unto themselves. ;)

I suppose the only thing to counter that, is that certain services are outsourced to private companies...In theory, if they do a crap job, then their contract won't be renewed...However, if they're in the pockets of a councillor / those who make decisions, then the crap services will continue...

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If I import something made in China for £500 and sell it to someone here taking a for £1000 am I a wealth creator?

Yes you are, you have bought something with YOUR money, taken a risk, paid duty on the goods arriving here. Sell them (hopefully) and get paid (hopefully)

While doing that you can pay Business rates, NI on your staffs wages and all your own taxes and NI and then pay someone to work out your VAT and accounts so you can pay tax on your profits

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That'll be a no then :D

Actually you've just proven my point. Democracy is a bit like a religious faith, no amount of logic or rational argument is enough to convince the believer of the flaws of their social framework, and challenging it just doesn't compute. Hence the sarky replys.

Fortunately though the general public have a lot more savy, just as church numbers have dwindled so too has political party affiliation and turnout at the ballot box. It's no wonder you're so keen on seeing your vision of society flourish via the barrel of a gun, people have seen what's on offer and decided that it's not for them. And we can't have that now, can we? ;)

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Actually you've just proven my point. Democracy is a bit like a religious faith, no amount of logic or rational argument is enough to convince the believer of the flaws of their social framework, and challenging it just doesn't compute. Hence the sarky replys.

Fortunately though the general public have a lot more savy, just as church numbers have dwindled so too has political party affiliation and turnout at the ballot box. It's no wonder you're so keen on seeing your vision of society flourish via the barrel of a gun, people have seen what's on offer and decided that it's not for them. And we can't have that now, can we? ;)

That's the great thing about the USA

The people also have guns

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But this, surely, isn't as straight forward as it seems.

What is really interesting, and no one ever mentions, is that the government actually pays far less for workers than the private sector does, because the private sector has to shoulder the cost of NI and income tax on their workers.

Take, say, an experienced teacher who can command a £27,000 pa salary. If he or she goes to work for a private school, that school has to pay him or her £27K pa; it costs them that figure (plus associated costs) to employ that teacher. But how much does it cost the state? Well, it only actually costs the state £20,550 for that teacher, because tax and NI comes from the same pot back into the same pot.

And this is kinda worrying when you consider whether the public sector has, maybe unintentionally, been inflating salary levels for some jobs, paying above private sector levels because it does not bear the same costs of workers as the private sector.

It is very easy for the public sector to advertise a headline rate of £20K gross pa for an admin assistant in a regional position when, in reality, the role only costs the state £15,700 a year, which is probably the kind of figure the private sector (outside finance) can only afford to pay.

BTW, I am not stalking you, chef. :)

These are good points, which is why I favour getting tax off of wages and employment, then the public and the private sectors can compete on an equal footing.

But the more general point I was making is that the way government runs its finances is wildly divergent from anything we see in the private sector. A normal business will make a note of the cost of inputs like materials, wages, rent and so and and measure the value of output at the till. The government doesn't, they know roughly what they're taking in taxation and borrowing, but they have absolutely no idea of the value of services that they're offering. It doesn't matter how careful Cameron et al are with the nations money, if they're systematically getting the basics wrong then they're destined to make a complete hash of it.

Edited by Chef
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These are good points, which is why I favour getting tax off of wages and employment, then the public and the private sectors can compete on an equal footing.

But the more general point I was making is that the way government runs its finances is wildly divergent from anything we see in the private sector. A normal business will make a note of the cost of inputs like materials, wages, rent and so and and measure the value of the output at the till. The government doesn't, they know roughly what they're taking in taxation and borrowing, but they have absolutely no idea of the value of services that they're offering. It doesn't matter how careful Cameron et al are with the nations money, if they're systematically getting the basics wrong then they're destined to make a complete hash of it.

....one of the most blatant ways they waste money is just before the end of the tax year.....if there is still money in the pot they spend it on anything to get rid of it otherwise they won't get so much next year....I ask you. ;)

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. Hence the sarky replys.

My replies arn't sarky: it is a no, isn't it ? Perfectly seriously, it is a no. You can't do it without recourse to denying the legitimacy of democracy. That very post proves it again.

It's no wonder you're so keen on seeing your vision of society flourish via the barrel of a gun,

and of course, the recourse to amateur dramatics.

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My replies arn't sarky: it is a no, isn't it ? Perfectly seriously, it is a no. You can't do it without recourse to denying the legitimacy of democracy. That very post proves it again.

The language here is key, I'm denying the legitimacy of democracy apparently. Well yes, I'm saying that I'm more important that your set of subjective beliefs. And they are subjective, no amount of wordplay is going to be able to make democracy an objective phenomena.

and of course, the recourse to amateur dramatics.

Not too sure what your point is, are you saying:

1) that the rules and taxes layed out by the state aren't compulsory, and can be flouted willy nilly.

Or

2) that the state does point a gun in people's face to get what it wants, but it doesn't matter because deomcracy is an objective good.

I expect you'll try and worm out of answering this question by calling me names again.

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The language here is key, I'm denying the legitimacy of democracy apparently.

That's still a "no" then

Not too sure what your point is, are you saying:

1) that the rules and taxes layed out by the state aren't compulsory, and can be flouted willy nilly.

Or

2) that the state does point a gun in people's face to get what it wants, but it doesn't matter because deomcracy is an objective good.

No.

I'm just saying you can't respond to my point on the economy without either denying the legitimacy of democracy or using language better suited to stage and screen, like " the state does point a gun in people's face to get what it wants"

I mean, if that's all you've got then that's OK. It's exactly what i expected :)

I expect you'll try and worm out of answering this question by calling me names again.

No.

No names have been called.

edit for /quote

Edited by Mal Volio
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Lots of "right answers" to this, lots of wrong ones too. One hypothetical answer might be that public sector employment should be related to taxation level of the private sector, which after all pays for the public. So, let's say average income/corporation tax is 25%, which is obviously used to provide public services. From this 20% you would subtract benefits plus the material purchases to provide these services (eg. hospital beds, rubbish trucks, traffic lights, etc.). Whatever is left should be to arrange for the delivery and operation of those services - ie the actual public sector workforce, let's call it 10% (finger in the air, I know, as I haven't looked at the tax take numbers but the logic is there). So, public sector workforce should be 10% in size compared to private sector workforce!

Not quite sure how you get to this figure.

HMG spends 40% of GDP so employing 40% of the workforce doesn't seem impossible (and it probably did in 1960).

Though as you say, currently much of the money that HMG spends is outsourced to the private sector, but how much? 75% seems to me to be on the high side, 50% more reasonable, leaving HMG employing 20% of the work force directly.

tim

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I'm just saying you can't respond to my point on the economy without either denying the legitimacy of democracy or using language better suited to stage and screen, like " the state does point a gun in people's face to get what it wants"

I mean, if that's all you've got then that's OK. It's exactly what i expected :)

Well the democratically elected coalition government seem to agree with me, since they've taken office they've been adament that we need to reduce the reach of the state. It just seems odd that such a believer in the democratic process is willing to deny the legitimacy of the coalition's approach to good governance.

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