Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
Dave Beans

6.1 Million Employed In The Public Sector

Recommended Posts

What, the state steals money which it conjured into existence in the first place?! Is that what you're saying?!?

Money isn't created by the private sector, its passed on and back between us under the guise of entrepreneurship/enterprise. The funny thing is, people actually believe they're superiour and more productive due to them being allocated more of this money then others, to pass around.

The argument for this type of thinking was fought and lost decades ago.

:blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And indeed vice versa ;)

Now, see if you can put together a sensible rebuttal that doesn't involve denying the legitimacy of democracy or being Injin.

This is perhaps where you're running into difficulties, by viewing democracy as the sole legitimate political system you're denying the possibility that anything could be wrong with it. Those that do point out its flaws then are raving loons incapable of accepting objective reality.

Democracy is only legitimate in your opinion, it's one of a number of competing frameworks that could be adopted to regulate social interaction. If you think it's better than all the others then maybe you could start by putting forward arguments as to why this is the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The argument for this type of thinking was fought and lost decades ago.

:blink:

Really? People thought the same about socialism, but as you've alluded to it's alive and very well indeed.

Digits for widgets? Please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Democracy is only legitimate in your opinion

Now, see if you can put together a sensible rebuttal that doesn't involve denying the legitimacy of democracy or being Injin.

That'll be a no then :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Me, I'm prepared to pay all my bills, public or private. It's only fair.

Of course, I should have seen it...Make EVERYONE a public sector worker and the whole thing is self financing...I was blind, and now I see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That'll be a no then :D

The problem is that Socialists believe that democracy means choosing which Socialist candidate you get to vote for

Wheras everyone else believes that democracy means having a choice of who you get to vote for

:blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course, I should have seen it...Make EVERYONE a public sector worker and the whole thing is self financing...I was blind, and now I see.

Anyone actually say anything like that ?

No, thought not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really? People thought the same about socialism, but as you've alluded to it's alive and very well indeed.

Digits for widgets? Please.

Socialism failed spectacularly throughout the 20th Century and brought untold death and suffering to hundreds of millions of people who thought it would be a good idea.

But sadly It will probably take the rest of the 21st Century to finally nail the lid down on the coffin

because every generation produces a new wave of losers who think that stealing the fruits of other peoples labour will make everyone richer

It doesn't - and it NEVER EVER will

:blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone actually say anything like that ?

No, thought not.

of course not...just extend your proposition to 100% and youll see NONE of it is self financing. If it was, then 100% would cost the state nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

of course not...just extend your proposition to 100% and youll see NONE of it is self financing. If it was, then 100% would cost the state nothing.

That's actually a failure of attempted reductio ad absurbum because the possible existence or not of such extremes doesn't affect the way our current system functions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's actually a failure of attempted reductio ad absurbum because the possible existence or not of such extremes doesn't affect the way our current system functions.

nonsense. If the public sector contributes, then we dont need private sector.

As it happens, it contributes FAR less than is costs, so whatever the proportions, public sector is a drain.

Not saying some services are not needed, they have to be paid for as nobody works for nothing...but 1 in 3?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

nonsense.

Not really.

If the public sector contributes, then we dont need private sector.

A state could be quite capable of manufacturing stuff and employing everyone. But that would be a totally different society. As would one with no public sector at all.

Not saying some services are not needed, they have to be paid for as nobody works for nothing...but 1 in 3?

Indeed. I'm just saying that it's a fallacy to say that the crude model of public as a simple sink and private as a simple source is adequate. As I said way upthread, it's considerably more nuanced than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

snip

Indeed. I'm just saying that it's a fallacy to say that the crude model of public as a simple sink and private as a simple source is adequate. As I said way upthread, it's considerably more nuanced than that.

yep, so nuanced that world wide 2 trillion of stimulus has made no difference at all.

brought a few cars sales forward, sold a few houses, increased the public sector by god knows how much, and the debt to 160bn.

And now we cant afford the people we have got.

I say, 50% off salaries above the national average of 25K. cull the managers by 50%. cancel redundancy deals for people above 25K to statutory levels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Socialism Communism/ failed spectacularly throughout the 20th Century and brought untold death and suffering to hundreds of millions of people who thought it would be a good idea.

But sadly It will probably take the rest of the 21st Century to finally nail the lid down on the coffin

because every generation produces a new wave of losers who think that stealing the fruits of other peoples labour will make everyone richer

It doesn't - and it NEVER EVER will

:blink:

No socialism won't ever work. Yet neither will rapid right wing capitalism when followed to its logical conclusion. It's absurd to acknowledge the failing of one whilst trumpeting the cause of the other. I’d like to take little pieces of both that make sense, and leave the crap behind for history. Instead we seemed to have ended up with the worst parts of each, but hey ho.

Why I’m I even debating with someone who ends all their posts with :blink: anyway?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really.

A state could be quite capable of manufacturing stuff and employing everyone. But that would be a totally different society. As would one with no public sector at all.

Indeed. I'm just saying that it's a fallacy to say that the crude model of public as a simple sink and private as a simple source is adequate. As I said way upthread, it's considerably more nuanced than that.

Slightly more nuanced perhaps.

But everyone can see that if the cost of the public sector is higher than the taxes paid by the private sector NOT total tax take as tax paid by public sector workers or those on benefit does not constitute revenue - then the country will eventually go bankrupt.

It's that simple.

:blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yep, so nuanced that world wide 2 trillion of stimulus has made no difference at all.

It has, though, in the short term. That's kind of the point. It may not be long-term sustainable, but the very effects of that injection show the inter-relatedness of this stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Slightly more nuanced perhaps.

Good. We at last have a recognition of principle. From here it's just a case of "how much". That comes down to ones personal politics, as much as anything, I'd suggest

Yes if you extract all the money out at some point in the system it'll fail. That's kind of the issue with house prices isn't it ? A mechanism that sucks away the ability of society to pay for stuff other than through debt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It has, though, in the short term. That's kind of the point. It may not be long-term sustainable, but the very effects of that injection show the inter-relatedness of this stuff.

you mean, if they kept spending money they dont have, we'd see some business taking place??

and when the money really does runout as the tax take needed to pay it kills the business....what then?

Oh yeah....a soveriegn debt bubble and defaults....I see where you are going with this....kick the can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No socialism won't ever work. Yet neither will rapid right wing capitalism when followed to its logical conclusion. It's absurd to acknowledge the failing of one whilst trumpeting the cause of the other. I’d like to take little pieces of both that make sense, and leave the crap behind for history. Instead we seemed to have ended up with the worst parts of each, but hey ho.

Why I’m I even debating with someone who ends all their posts with :blink: anyway?

The emoticons are part of a sophisticated psychological warfare strategy

They used to drive Steve Cook bonkers and where is he now?

The problem is that we are a very, very, very long way from rabid right wing capitalism which is why we are in the cr*p

IMHO.

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh and for the economically illiterate on this thread - NO ONE in the public sector actually pays ANY tax

They just give the government some of the money which it stole from the private sector back

Perhaps someone from the left could explain what value is added to the economy by the tens of thousands of people in HMRC who are employed collecting tax off public sector employees?

:blink:

I wondered why we don't just pay them less and not bother taxing them. More efficient than paying them more and then taking it back? And they earn the exact same amount to take home either way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good. We at last have a recognition of principle. From here it's just a case of "how much". That comes down to ones personal politics, as much as anything, I'd suggest

Yes if you extract all the money out at some point in the system it'll fail. That's kind of the issue with house prices isn't it ? A mechanism that sucks away the ability of society to pay for stuff other than through debt.

And theres the nub..something that pays for itself either needs no DEBT in the first place, or, it can keep going, make some wealth and pay the debt back...this gives a return to the investors and the banks.

DEBT is the killer.

just listening to Doomberg, and the Obama plan, road, tracks and runways is to provide IIRC 40bn in new road, railway repairs and 150 miles of runway refurb...how is he going to pay...he's going to set up a special banks to LEVERAGE the scheme....so now, its not a stimulus, its a new bank that LOANS to people to do pointless work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you mean, if they kept spending money they dont have, we'd see some business taking place??

Nope. that's not what i said

and when the money really does runout as the tax take needed to pay it kills the business....what then?

Nope. I didn't say that either

Oh yeah....a soveriegn debt bubble and defaults....I see where you are going with this....kick the can.

Or indeed that

Look, we can have a debate - or you can carry on assigning me positions I don't have. Up to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope. that's not what i said

Nope. I didn't say that either

Or indeed that

Look, we can have a debate - or you can carry on assigning me positions I don't have. Up to you.

what did you say then...you arent being clear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good. We at last have a recognition of principle. From here it's just a case of "how much". That comes down to ones personal politics, as much as anything, I'd suggest

Yes if you extract all the money out at some point in the system it'll fail. That's kind of the issue with house prices isn't it ? A mechanism that sucks away the ability of society to pay for stuff other than through debt.

That's the point we have reached now.

I would describe Nu Labour as one party capitalists

A one party state paid for by unregulated capitalism

Which appears to be the policy they are persuing in China.

Some might see this as the worst of both worlds.

Fortunately in the UK the system failed before Labour were able to use the proceeds of unregulated capitalism to construct an unbeatable socialist client state - but they came VERY close to succeeding.

TBH I think the establishment understood the game, used it to fill their own boots then pulled the plug just in time to foil the plan.

To my mind it was a very dangerous game to play and I don't think the establishment will ever allow a similar situation to arise again.

In the 70's they tried the direct approach and failed

this time they tried the stealth approach and failed

I don't think they will ever be allowed a third attempt

:blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Medical Research Council is a 100% publically funded government owned body.

The staff at the MRC have made discoveries that have completely changed the world and created entire industries that have generated thousands of productive jobs.

Take one example of Antibody Technology.

All the research and work was done with public money.

The ideas were patented and spun out into a company which was then sold off.

Lots of companies now use the technology and generate money for the privately owned company (now US owned) but based in the UK near the MRC

Can one of the "private good - public bad" types explain who created the wealth, at what point, and whether the company would be better being state owned or having been sold off?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 201 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.