Free Market Has Turned Us Into 'matrix' Drones

[The Masked Tulip]

A leading economist has likened the nation's acceptance of free-market capitalism to that of the brainwashed characters in the film The Matrix, unwitting pawns in a fake reality. In a controversial new book, the Cambridge economist Ha-Joon Chang debunks received wisdom on everything from the importance of the internet to the idea that people in the United States enjoy the highest standard of living in the world; an iconoclastic attitude that has won him fans such as Bob Geldof and Noam Chomsky.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/free-market-has-turned-us-into-matrix-drones-2064799.html

Worth a read.

[Executive Sadman]

Free market?

Where?

His understanding of it must be different to everyone elses.

attitude that has won him fans such as Bob Geldof

Nuff said.

[yelims]

really?? what is he smoking

Free Market? what free market!?

i suppose next he be telling us we should all embrace the pinko socialist ideology and central planning because that works great

Edited August 29, 2010 by yelims

[RichB]

i suppose next he be telling us we should all embrace the pinko socialist ideology and central planning because that works great

A lot of folks who used to live under that system, but are now ******ed over by capitalism and free markets do indeed agree with you.

not my cup of tea though.

[ken_ichikawa]

The British economy is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

[crouch]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/free-market-has-turned-us-into-matrix-drones-2064799.html

Worth a read.

Personally I don't think he's stating much more than the obvious. Capitalism is a social construct not a system that obeys immutable laws. Chinese capitalism is different from US capitalism. I also happen to agree with the Noam Chomsky school of thought which does see these systems as dependent on brainwashing and the neutering of independent thought; see his book "Manufacturing Consent" and you get the idea; incidentally when I first wanted to obtain this book(early nineties) it wasn't freely available as it was considered far too controversial.

[yelims]

A lot of folks who used to live under that system, but are now ******ed over by capitalism and free markets do indeed agree with you.

not my cup of tea though.

However bad the markets are at making mistakes (mostly due to lack of good information or just plain recklesness)

I pick free market capitalism any day over centrally planned communism/socialism/fascism

At least with capitalism you know where you stand and have a chance to get ahead in life (im doing fairly well for myself thank you)

the alternative is having beuracrats and mandarins decide what job you may pursue or how much toilet paper might be produced for the proles to wipe their arses with

Oh and I spend considerable time in ex communist countries, however bad things are due to cronyism its infinitely better than being a slave in centrally planned system

to summarize i rather enjoy what little freedoms i have left in the however badly broken current western system

than be a sheep in an animal farm experiment with faceless bureaucrats controlling all aspects of my life

Edited August 29, 2010 by yelims

[Mal Volio]

At least with capitalism you know where you stand and have a chance to get ahead in life (im doing fairly well for myself thank you)

That's maybe why you're in favour of it. I don't doubt that those who did well under other systems would also favour those, and say that if you play the system optimally you can get on. As for the rest, the poor suckers, well it's their own fault, innit ?

[yelims]

That's maybe why you're in favour of it. I don't doubt that those who did well under other systems would also favour those, and say that if you play the system optimally you can get on. As for the rest, the poor suckers, well it's their own fault, innit ?

And there is the distinction

under a capitalist, free market system you might have a chance of doing well in life, and yes you can do well by working hard and getting more educated

under centrally controlled socialist system you have no chance, since you only get a job assigned to you by a bureaucrat and you spend most of your life queuing for basic necessities such as bread

maybe you could ask the Cubans or North Koreans what they rather live under

alot of people think that a social system should take care of people from cradle to grave, but they forget to realise that without an incentive to work and get ahead in life stagnation ensues as happened in USSR

once again i rather be a "drone" and have a hope of having a good life if i work hard

than being a "drone" and knowing that you have no hope in hell of having a good life

refer to The Road To Serfdom for a better explanation

ironically its government control and interference that makes us feel like drones, so its mind-boggling to think that somehow handing more control to the politicians and mandarins will make things better

Edited August 29, 2010 by yelims

[Injin]

Another academic knobhead who hasn't bothered to think about what the free in free market is free from.

His plugs and wires are still firmly in place.

[Mal Volio]

And there is the distinction

under a capitalist, free market system you might have a chance of doing well in life, and yes you can do well by working hard and getting more educated

under centrally controlled socialist system you have no chance, since you only get a job assigned to you by a bureaucrat and you spend most of your life queuing for basic necessities such as bread

maybe you could ask the Cubans or North Koreans what they rather live under

I'm not defending communism or whatever, just suggesting that people like you (and me) who've done OK out of the UK system the last few years are going to want to defend it. Other people in other systems will have done badly, or well, and those who have done well will wish to defend it. What's interesting (for me) is that one sometimes sees people who have not done so well defending the system for ideological reasons.

[Injin]

I'm not defending communism or whatever, just suggesting that people like you (and me) who've done OK out of the UK system the last few years are going to want to defend it. Other people in other systems will have done badly, or well, and those who have done well will wish to defend it. What's interesting (for me) is that one sometimes sees people who have not done so well defending the system for ideological reasons.

The UK system is largely centrally planned.

The collectivists thought they could get around the problem of central planning by using the forms and signs of capitalism - so all the orders to the population have been issued by bankers using PC number money.

Needless to say, it hasn't worked.

[Mal Volio]

Whatever

Either way, defending the UK system (or any other) is done either cos we've done OK out of it or for ideological reasons

Remember that leftie slogan form the mid-80s ?

"Rich and selfish ? Poor and stupid ? Vote Tory !"

[yelims]

I'm not defending communism or whatever, just suggesting that people like you (and me) who've done OK out of the UK system the last few years are going to want to defend it. Other people in other systems will have done badly, or well, and those who have done well will wish to defend it. What's interesting (for me) is that one sometimes sees people who have not done so well defending the system for ideological reasons.

Im from Ireland which economically was more liberal than UK (it seems from my travels) but of course full of cronyism

now you have people here saying "see free market failed so we need more socialism" hell some people here even hold the NHS as the pinnacle of healthcare

When they fail to see the big elephant in the room, the failure of this country has been created and directed by the Fianna Failure government in power for a long time now, with a group of about 2000 people driving the country into the ground thanks to the control and lack of accountability handed to them by the people of this country

It mystifies me how people put the blame on "the free market" when the real cause are politicians and central banks which drove western economies of a cliff

BTW i am not defending the current system, its far from perfect (mostly due to liberties we already signed away) and as i mentioned has obvious issues, buts infinitely more preferable to everyone (whether they realise it or not) than a system where we handover our liberty and freedoms to an organisation of incompetent politicians and hope they somehow run our lives better

Edited August 29, 2010 by yelims

[Mal Volio]

Confirmation bias ?

[Injin]

Whatever

Either way, defending the UK system (or any other) is done either cos we've done OK out of it or for ideological reasons

Remember that leftie slogan form the mid-80s ?

"Rich and selfish ? Poor and stupid ? Vote Tory !"

Of course.

However, the UK doesn't have a free market system.

To call a system with 45%+ of GDP state spending, with hundreds of thousands of laws about what you can and can't buy and sell a free market is crack smoking foolishness.

The only possible conclusion is that our good professor doesn't actually know what a free market is.

[Mal Volio]

However, the UK doesn't have a free market system.

Agreed.

[Laughing Gnome]

maybe you could ask the Cubans or North Koreans what they rather live under

I am not aware of any Cubans desperate to migrate to Haiti, Jamaica or the Dominican Republic.

I shouln't imagine there would be many difficulties from those various nations over immigration.

[yelims]

I am not aware of any Cubans desperate to migrate to Haiti, Jamaica or the Dominican Republic.

I shouln't imagine there would be many difficulties from those various nations over immigration.

lets not forget all the Cubans risking their lifes to cross shark infested waters in dingies to get to US

Its interesting how people (deliberately?) paint states that are criminal, corrupt as a product of free market capitalism

both are attributes that are also present in socialist systems, especially corruption

anwyays whats wrong with Dominican Republic? they have one of the better economies in the carribean

Edited August 29, 2010 by yelims

[aa3]

There are many Brits who emigrate to other nations each year. Often to authoritarian nations in Asia and the Middle East. Where there is a much greater degree of central control of the economy.

[Mal Volio]

BTW i am not defending the current system, its far from perfect (mostly due to liberties we already signed away) and as i mentioned has obvious issues, buts infinitely more preferable to everyone (whether they realise it or not)

That looks like an ideological position from here

I might venture that the current UK system could be infinitely more preferable to you, and maybe me, but that others who have done less well may have a different view.

[Traktion]

Of course.

However, the UK doesn't have a free market system.

To call a system with 45%+ of GDP state spending, with hundreds of thousands of laws about what you can and can't buy and sell a free market is crack smoking foolishness.

The only possible conclusion is that our good professor doesn't actually know what a free market is.

At least a few who posted comments to that article called it correctly. Hope springs eternal...

[ken_ichikawa]

The only possible conclusion is that our good professor doesn't actually know what a free market is.

What so The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea isn't a democracy? Wait does this mean that the Democratic Republic of Congo isn't a democracy either! I mean surely just changin the name of something makes it true doesn't it!

I mean although taxes smell like extortion, look like extortion and are pretty much extortion they can't be extortion because they are named taxes or community charges...

Say it ain't so Injin...

BUt no you must be lying! Thats it! Liar liar pants on fire!

Edited August 29, 2010 by ken_ichikawa

[dissident junk]

You know what's really weird?

The very people who think they took the red pill and are "freed from the matrix" are actually the ones who are still in the system, just on an alternative, but still sanctioned, path. They simply swapped one meta-narrative for another, and both are equally illusory, and both exist within the same instance of an ontology, and both use the typical methods of hypothesis to construct understanding of reality. The thing that makes them think they are different from the rest is that they were offered "a choice" which made them realise there were choices --- but they never figured out that the choice was between two paths within the same ontological "installation".

For all people say about post-modernism, the philosophy does lay out the reality of metanarratives and ontologies to explain why those that think they have broken out of one metanarrative by choosing another meta narrative never actually get any closer to truly understanding reality.

Indeed, the first step towards truly understanding would be, to use the metaphor, to take both the red pill and the blue pill at the same time, and hope that the paradox throws you out of the ontology all together.

A real life example would be to absorb all data and hypothesis from every metanarrative -- so socialist, communist, capitalist, fascist, all religious etc -- in a nondiscriminatory spirit in order to begin to comprehend the total phenomenon from the sum of data, patterns, hypothesis etc.

Calvino wrote a rather lovely little book called Invisible Cities that explored a similar concept when applied to the city of Venice.

[Minos]

You know what's really weird?

The very people who think they took the red pill and are "freed from the matrix" are actually the ones who are still in the system, just on an alternative, but still sanctioned, path. They simply swapped one meta-narrative for another, and both are equally illusory, and both exist within the same instance of an ontology, and both use the typical methods of hypothesis to construct understanding of reality. The thing that makes them think they are different from the rest is that they were offered "a choice" which made them realise there were choices --- but they never figured out that the choice was between two paths within the same ontological "installation".

For you to say this means you must know what the real truth is. What is it?