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Mikhail Liebenstein

Lib Dems Committ Suicide Over Grad Tax...is Clegg A Sleeper Agent?

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/7957345/Nick-Clegg-backs-tax-on-university-graduates.html

I have been following this debate closely and as someone who experienced the student loans system (a minor inconvenience) this new positioning for a Graduate Tax seems absolutely ridiculous by Nick Clegg. I understand the Lib Dems didn't want to increase tuition fees, but  all this talk of a grad tax is surely worse and will be highly unpopular. 

The fact that the suggestion has come from Cable with Clegg now promoting it out in the open suggests it is likely to become coalition policy.  However, attacking students and young workers (who  perhaps on average lean more towards the Lib Dems) would seem to be the fastest route to suicide by the Lib Dems.

One of the sets of comments below the article implies there will be avoidance either by going on a foreign degree course or by leaving the UK after your course. All probably correct.  Also  most graduates earn more and pay more tax anyway. If I look back,  I did a very expensive course, Engineering which probably cost £17k PA, but I have paid far more tax than that every year for the last 10 years and will carry on doing so. There are a few courses that cost more, such as Medicine, but I assume society would like to keep producing Doctors and Engineers. The courses that may perhaps may not attract such high average salaries by their graduates, such as the traditional arts subjects of course don't cost anywhere near as much to teach, but you still get a brighter more capable person out at the end and so of course are still worthwhile.

After this is over I expect the Lib Dems will disintegrate. The Orange Books guys off to the Tories and the activists off to Labour.

Edited by Mikhail Liebenstein

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This is the screwed generation, the generation that is expected to bust their hump in college, university and work to have nothing out of the deal. The average house is out of their reach, shops prices are through the roof, wages are low and taxes are increasing.

Countries like Oz will welcome these people after the UK has educated them.

Looks like the country is continuing in the vein of biting the hand that feeds it...

Edited by MrFlibble

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And in the end you have a photo of DC shaking hands with Ed Milliband* saying: well we finally pulled it off and rid our land of those troublesome LDs.

*Anyone other than the Balls creature.

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And in the end you have a photo of DC shaking hands with Ed Milliband* saying: well we finally pulled it off and rid our land of those troublesome LDs.

*Anyone other than the Balls creature.

I made this point earlier in the week on a different thread.Clegg is displaying incredible political naivety.I can only assume for a brief place in the footnotes of history. The LD vote appearts to have collapsed to around 12% and in FPTP this isn't enough to retain more than a handful of seats.It's pretty clear that the big two will stitch him on PR/AV. An ingenue of the highest order.

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The Graduate Tax is a progressive answer to a difficult problem.

Knowing what the future holds is impossible for most 18 year olds, who should all believe in the limitless possibilities ahead. They may be disappointed.

But for some, the glittering prizes will arrive. It is not unreasonable that they should pay more for the country's contribution to their success.

To the wider question of what it means for the LibDems, I can only say that the Coalition has the seeds of its own destruction within it.

Clegg has to survive his Party Conference. This is a gesture to his activists. If it becomes policy, it will probably be quietly ditched later.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/7957345/Nick-Clegg-backs-tax-on-university-graduates.html

I have been following this debate closely and as someone who experienced the student loans system (a minor inconvenience) this new positioning for a Graduate Tax seems absolutely ridiculous by Nick Clegg. I understand the Lib Dems didn't want to increase tuition fees, but  all this talk of a grad tax is surely worse and will be highly unpopular. 

.

When this was proposed a few weeks ago the BBC politics show "interviewed" a few men-in-the-street about this.

Surprisingly (to me) almost all of the young graduates thought that it was a good idea and were in favour of it.

So don't knock it just on gut feel

tim

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This is the screwed generation, the generation that is expected to bust their hump in college, university and work to have nothing out of the deal. The average house is out of their reach, shops prices are through the roof, wages are low and taxes are increasing.

Countries like Oz will welcome these people after the UK has educated them.

Looks like the country is continuing in the vein of biting the hand that feeds it...

The Govt No.1 priority is continue "to Feed" the City/Banking industry (keep the old establishment going that busted us all) - everything else in the UK is expendable.

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He's not a plant, just somebody who could function comfortably in the Tory party as a liberal conservative. David laws the same. Perhaps a handful of other LibDems could quite comfortably slip across too.

People are now only coming to realise exactly what Clegg stands for and it isn't much to do with what he said in the leadership debates. The clues should have been in the constiuency he represents - take a super wealthy area in the London stockbroker belt and transplant it into a northern city and you will get some idea.

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The fact that the suggestion has come from Cable with Clegg now promoting it out in the open suggests it is likely to become coalition policy.  However, attacking students and young workers (who  perhaps on average lean more towards the Lib Dems) would seem to be the fastest route to suicide by the Lib Dems.

...they should ask themselves if it should be retrospective to say the 60's ....if they say no that would be unfair then it is unfair for tomorrow....stick with fees and make all parts of the country equal in this respect..... :rolleyes:

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It is a good idea - it will discourage people from going to university. I do not think we should park 50% of young talent into an institution for 3 years.

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It is a good idea - it will discourage people from going to university. I do not think we should park 50% of young talent into an institution for 3 years.

...without a job or degree they will not be able to compete with the rest of the world for jobs.... :rolleyes:

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I would be a science graduate if I could find the £1000+ I need to pay off from my fees. Instead I'm struggling to find work due to not having a degree and I'm on the dole. So far since leaving uni without a degree (due to my inability to pay) I've claimed about £5000k in benefits.

I'm in a catch 22 situation.

I need a decent job to pay for my degree, and I need my degree to get the decent job.

Not only am I losing out, but so is the state.

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...without a job or degree they will not be able to compete with the rest of the world for jobs.... :rolleyes:

The attitudes in this country will re-balance. I am fed up with seeing tea making and photo copying office junior jobs requiring an effing degree. It's just wrong.

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But the government want to keep them off the unemployed stats and if they are uni they are not unemployed so will continue to encourage people to go there.

Can't understand why when we have a MASSIVE deficit they are just re-arranging the deckchairs. There has been lots of talk and no action - this 'discussion' takes away focus from the real problem ie the one they are not addressing, the £500m over spend every day.

But there is the assumption, either university, or unemployed. It's rubbish, and it is a threat to to today's youth, to force them into debt. The alternatives are hardly mentioned or encouraged. I have a friend who is having the time of his life as a cook on a cruise ship, no degree required.

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So are you saying the massive number of under 25s who are not working are just lazy?

Not at all! I think they have been shafted.

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This is the screwed generation, the generation that is expected to bust their hump in college, university and work to have nothing out of the deal. The average house is out of their reach, shops prices are through the roof, wages are low and taxes are increasing.

I sometimes think that young people, provided they have the latest mobile 'phone to play with, are completely oblivious to what's going on.

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The attitudes in this country will re-balance. I am fed up with seeing tea making and photo copying office junior jobs requiring an effing degree. It's just wrong.

...even with a degree you have to start at the bottom nowadays ...too many think they can walk in at the top.... :rolleyes:

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/7957345/Nick-Clegg-backs-tax-on-university-graduates.html

I have been following this debate closely and as someone who experienced the student loans system (a minor inconvenience) this new positioning for a Graduate Tax seems absolutely ridiculous by Nick Clegg. I understand the Lib Dems didn't want to increase tuition fees, but  all this talk of a grad tax is surely worse and will be highly unpopular. 

The fact that the suggestion has come from Cable with Clegg now promoting it out in the open suggests it is likely to become coalition policy.  However, attacking students and young workers (who  perhaps on average lean more towards the Lib Dems) would seem to be the fastest route to suicide by the Lib Dems.

One of the sets of comments below the article implies there will be avoidance either by going on a foreign degree course or by leaving the UK after your course. All probably correct.  Also  most graduates earn more and pay more tax anyway. If I look back,  I did a very expensive course, Engineering which probably cost £17k PA, but I have paid far more tax than that every year for the last 10 years and will carry on doing so. There are a few courses that cost more, such as Medicine, but I assume society would like to keep producing Doctors and Engineers. The courses that may perhaps may not attract such high average salaries by their graduates, such as the traditional arts subjects of course don't cost anywhere near as much to teach, but you still get a brighter more capable person out at the end and so of course are still worthwhile.

After this is over I expect the Lib Dems will disintegrate. The Orange Books guys off to the Tories and the activists off to Labour.

I can't see Clegg surviving as leader for another 12 months. He is getting increasingly agressive with his back benchers and even his supporters.....echos the final days of Brown. People didn't actually vote for savage cuts and they really don't have a mandate to govern if they are willing to go back on their word. At least Cameron told us he was going to cut but at the end of the day...Cameron didn't win a majority.

Evidence shows that the more educated we are the better off we are, both financially and socially. Education is key to the success of this country and the days of pile it high and sell it cheap are over.....we need high quality and high value. Hitting graduates with a tax when they leave will hit many professions as not all the professions are well paid......but they may be very important. Many back room lab scientists earn less than 25,000 pa...but play a vital role in research etc etc...

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I can't see Clegg surviving as leader for another 12 months. He is getting increasingly agressive with his back benchers and even his supporters.....echos the final days of Brown. People didn't actually vote for savage cuts and they really don't have a mandate to govern if they are willing to go back on their word. At least Cameron told us he was going to cut but at the end of the day...Cameron didn't win a majority.

Evidence shows that the more educated we are the better off we are, both financially and socially. Education is key to the success of this country and the days of pile it high and sell it cheap are over.....we need high quality and high value. Hitting graduates with a tax when they leave will hit many professions as not all the professions are well paid......but they may be very important. Many back room lab scientists earn less than 25,000 pa...but play a vital role in research etc etc...

A lot of full time lab jobs are offering £+0.50 per hour worked when you compare it to the level of welfare benefits. With alcohol duty being as high as it is, homebrewing becomes a superior alternative to work for common man. The £ incentive of working is the ability to buy less than 10 pints from wetherspoons per week. Or you can spend your time brewing a steady beer supply of a gallon a day.

Man needs an incentive to work, and if he can do so for himself albeit not in the form of money and make a greater profit, he will.

Youth unemployment is high because many of the jobs do not offer enough £ incentive when you consider regressive taxation on simple consumer goods like beer.

1 Litre of 4% beer will cost 70p in DUTY and another 14p in VAT on the duty.

I can brew it at home for less than 10p/L. Spend £1/L+ in the supermarket, or £5/L+ in a pub.

By all means keep beer out of the reach of those unwilling to work and unable to brew, but surely there should be beer vouchers available to low income workers to combat the high rate of tax upon beer. Worklessness is fast becoming an attractive option to the British, housing benefit stops them struggling with the rent, which they would struggle with if they worked.

Prisoners gets 3 meals a day, while those on unemployment benefit or a low wage can only do so by eating beans on toast and weetabix. (And wheat is going up in price!)

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Shouldn't the graduate tax be backdated to include all of us who got a free university education?

Neither Clegg nor anyone else who has advocated a graduate tax has said whether or not they think it should be retrospective. I can't see how it would be politically possible to make it so or not to make it so, because not only would you include those who got a free university education (by free, I mean no fees, and in some cases plus a maintenance grant - there was a period in the late '90s in which the grants were phased out but tuition was still free), but you'd also hit graduates from the last 13 years or so who did not, and who in effect would be having to pay twice - their loan repayments, plus the graduate tax. If you set the cutoff point at the introduction of student maintenance loans ('96 or '97 IIRC) and exempted people who graduated between then and the first year of the new funding regime, you'd be alienating the 35+ generation who are just starting to become high earners, are more likely to vote and are more able to emigrate. In other words, the whole idea is a colossal Catch 22.

What no-one seems to want to realise is that the current system is a graduate tax in all but name, and furthermore a much fairer one than what is proposed, because you only pay it until you've paid off the cost of your education, or for 25 years, and you don't have to pay it unless you're earning above a certain threshold. As the repayments are a capped percentage of your income, doctors and engineers will pay more than arts graduates who go into administration or management. How can making you keep on paying over and above what you borrowed be described as fair?!

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Neither Clegg nor anyone else who has advocated a graduate tax has said whether or not they think it should be retrospective.

If introduced it would be fairer to be retrospective and simple formulae could be used to handle the variations of payment or non payment to date.

The other way is to lower the cost and not the quality of University.

It is more than feasible to work on a degree online from the comfort of home. Do you ever enter your Bank today except through the hole in wall or online? It's the same with education. Who needs the bricks and mortar?

Already many Universities deliver their lectures by Podcasts downloaded from the Internet by the students. The next steps are a revolutionary's dream...win,win,win for students ,universities and government.... :rolleyes:

Edited by South Lorne

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  • 152 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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