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Confusion Over ‘U-Turn’ On Cull Of Experienced Nhs Clinical Staff

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You know that story from the past 2 weeks about the Welsh Assembly keeping on 120 managers in the Welsh NHS earning six figure salaries... and guaranteeing their six figure salaries & pensions for the next 10 years even if they take a more junior posts...

Well, it appears that the Labour Party in the Assembly has been busy planning to fire thousands of senior medical staff in the meantime.

Typical of the mentality in Wales - fire the staff who actually look after you, keep on the pen-pushers who inflate the egoes of politicians IMPO.

Banana Republic!

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2010/08/11/confusion-over-u-turn-on-cull-of-experienced-nhs-clinical-staff-91466-27038276/

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You know that story from the past 2 weeks about the Welsh Assembly keeping on 120 managers in the Welsh NHS earning six figure salaries... and guaranteeing their six figure salaries & pensions for the next 10 years even if they take a more junior posts...

Well, it appears that the Labour Party in the Assembly has been busy planning to fire thousands of senior medical staff in the meantime.

Typical of the mentality in Wales - fire the staff who actually look after you, keep on the pen-pushers who inflate the egoes of politicians IMPO.

I doubt whether this kind of thing will be confined to Wales.

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Lots of hpc posters have been looking forward to mass sackings of public sector staff and quite a common comment made is that members of the public won't notice any difference to levels of service after the sackings take place.

Last night a comment was made that nobody would notice anything different if everyone in the Crown Prosecution Service was sacked.

But watch the whining increase once more front line workers disappear, and the penny drops that there weren't 7 million diversity dance coordinators working in the public sector who could be sacked first , after all.

Lots of posters on here want to have their cake and eat it methinks, so it will be fascinating to see the reactions on these boards as we get further into and beyond the autumn.

Edited by dremmler

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but in england they're simply getting rid of PCTs, etc all together - where all the managers are

Cameron and Clegg made a smart move there IMHO

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but in england they're simply getting rid of PCTs, etc all together - where all the managers are

Cameron and Clegg made a smart move there IMHO

So who is going to organise treatment for patients? The GPs? They're going to stop seeing patients and sit in offices negotiating services, appointments and beds, are they?

No, the GP practices will just employ managers to do that, totalling thousands - probably more than were employed by the PCTs

There are 8,230 GP practices in England (figure: King's Fund) and 152 PCTs plus 10 Strategic Health Authorities (figure: National Archives)

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So who is going to organise treatment for patients? The GPs? They're going to stop seeing patients and sit in offices negotiating services, appointments and beds, are they?

No, the GP practices will just employ managers to do that, totalling thousands - probably more than were employed by the PCTs

Yep

Big GP practices will employ teams of purchasing-negotiators and process-managers who used to work at PCTs; smaller ones will outsource it to specialist companies who will employ the rest of the people who used to work in PCTs.

GPs seem not to want this, on the whole. It's ideological.

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So who is going to organise treatment for patients? The GPs? They're going to stop seeing patients and sit in offices negotiating services, appointments and beds, are they?

No, the GP practices will just employ managers to do that, totalling thousands - probably more than were employed by the PCTs

There are 8,230 GP practices in England (figure: King's Fund) and 152 PCTs plus 10 Strategic Health Authorities (figure: National Archives)

Correct. GPs have full time jobs plus run their own businesses. What will happen is they will employ the ex-PCTs to do the exact same jobs. I would not be surprised if the general gist is that the PCTs will be rebranded / privatised and the exact same people and buildings will be used for the exact same (inefficient) jobs, with a different placard out the front.

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The central leadership has to take direct control of the budget cuts.. Or else these senior managers will cut all the lower end people, while giving themselves generous salary increases and bonuses.

Its human nature, these senior managers are deciding pay and benefits for themselves... so naturally they keep giving themselves more.

Because so many people are abusing the system, I think they also need a unifed national pay structure. If you have 10 people reporting to you, you are in such and such a range. 80 people gets such and such a range. Should need like the minister of health's direct signature to earn more than the perscribed range.

Edited by aa3

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The central leadership has to take direct control of the budget cuts..

But that's exactly what they're rowing away from. They devolve the cuts-making decisions to local level and just squeeze budgets centrally, leaving the blame to attach locally. Slopey-shouderedness abounds.

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Well, it appears that the Labour Party in the Assembly has been busy planning to fire thousands of senior medical staff in the meantime.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2010/08/11/confusion-over-u-turn-on-cull-of-experienced-nhs-clinical-staff-91466-27038276/

...and blame the coalition....Labour continuing it's scorched earth policy of total destruction..... <_<

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The central leadership has to take direct control of the budget cuts.. Or else these senior managers will cut all the lower end people, while giving themselves generous salary increases and bonuses.

I can see two problems with that.

1. The Coalition says it wants less central control. Getting rid of PCTs and giving control to GPs, getting rid of housing targets and saying councils and communities should decide, saying local authorities should decide on road safety, speed cameras etc.

2. (and this is the biggie) When it all goes horribly wrong, when the voters notice that they're still paying the same amount of tax or even more tax but getting poor quality services or none at all, the Coalition hopes it'll be the GPs and the local authorities who will get the blame, not them.

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Yep

Big GP practices will employ teams of purchasing-negotiators and process-managers who used to work at PCTs; smaller ones will outsource it to specialist companies who will employ the rest of the people who used to work in PCTs.

GPs seem not to want this, on the whole. It's ideological.

absolutely agree. thats what I'm seeing...

deckchairs on the titanic....

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I can see two problems with that.

1. The Coalition says it wants less central control. Getting rid of PCTs and giving control to GPs, getting rid of housing targets and saying councils and communities should decide, saying local authorities should decide on road safety, speed cameras etc.

2. (and this is the biggie) When it all goes horribly wrong, when the voters notice that they're still paying the same amount of tax or even more tax but getting poor quality services or none at all, the Coalition hopes it'll be the GPs and the local authorities who will get the blame, not them.

Decentralisation is important and badly needed, that said, if they really think 2) above then they are crazy. See: poll tax.

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So who is going to organise treatment for patients? The GPs? They're going to stop seeing patients and sit in offices negotiating services, appointments and beds, are they?

No, the GP practices will just employ managers to do that, totalling thousands - probably more than were employed by the PCTs

There are 8,230 GP practices in England (figure: King's Fund) and 152 PCTs plus 10 Strategic Health Authorities (figure: National Archives)

for every other technical profession I can think of - engineering, academia, accounting, optometry (been chatting with someone over this), IT - then generally their senior managers, the decision makers, have a technical background in the field, otherwise how can they make informed decisions? Sure, people from nursing, pharmacy, medical laboratory and doctors backgrounds will in many cases move wholly or partly into management, basically those with the aptitude and desire to make things run better (hopefully) and the bean-counting will be contracted to many financial and statistical types formerly employed in PCTs

but before it was a big job creation scheme. Bean-counters' salaries will be cut and organisation will be better and more competitive, less will be employed. the savings will be large IMHO. It is indeed ideological, but so was the socialist job-creation scheme that is the current NHS setup.

The proof will of course be in the pudding.My only direct term of reference was some management people I knew that worked in said trusts etc - these people would never be worth the same salaries in the private sector, period. They are in for a shock.

Edited by Si1

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The proof will of course be in the pudding.My only direct term of reference was some management people I knew that worked in said trusts etc - these people would never be worth the same salaries in the private sector, period. They are in for a shock.

The experience of other transfers of function to the private sector - railways, gas, electricity, DERA - is that the management got stratospheric remuneration increases.

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We don't train enough doctors in this country.

The BMA sees that we always have a limited number of GPs which means that there is a shortage and hence GP salaries and pensions will always be kept sky-high.

Until we triple the number of doctors trained in the UK we will have a huge problem.

I don't know about England but there has been a move here in Wales towards training more specialist nurses - often they know more about a chosen field such as asthma or diabetes then some doctors... but then it looks like the Assembly have been trying to get rid of them.

Nuts.

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The experience of other transfers of function to the private sector - railways, gas, electricity, DERA - is that the management got stratospheric remuneration increases.

less managers, individuals paid more -

(edit, let me clarify - the NHS is full of sh*tloads of managers, most of these won't last, osome good ones, and probably ones with clinical backgrounds, you would hope to be running the job in years to come, a fraction of the current number.)

and overall - with the apparent exception being the railways with its funny structure, and i do not know about DERA - the service is better for less money, considering the broader picture - British Steel, water companies in addition. Better, for less.

Edited by Si1

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We don't train enough doctors in this country.

The BMA sees that we always have a limited number of GPs which means that there is a shortage and hence GP salaries and pensions will always be kept sky-high.

Until we triple the number of doctors trained in the UK we will have a huge problem.

I don't know about England but there has been a move here in Wales towards training more specialist nurses - often they know more about a chosen field such as asthma or diabetes then some doctors... but then it looks like the Assembly have been trying to get rid of them.

Nuts.

I understiood there is an oversupply of medical graduates - but they can't get the follow-on trainee positions to get to GP/Surgeon etc ??

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I understiood there is an oversupply of medical graduates - but they can't get the follow-on trainee positions to get to GP/Surgeon etc ??

There is lots of FUD isn't there... apparently in Wales they simply can't get enough GPs so GPs can dictate where they work, for how much, etc. They actually set up a medical school in the Uni a mile down the road from myself to train older people to become doctors - was tempted myself but decided that I could not hack the long hours at my age - so great is the apparent shortage.

One thing I have been hearing for years in Wales that you can train to be a physio or a radiologist, etc, part of which is on-hands training in a hospital but once you are qualified there are apparently few if any jobs. The Trusts, apparently, have an endless supply of trainees coming through and only keep a very small number of experienced staff.

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There is lots of FUD isn't there... apparently in Wales they simply can't get enough GPs so GPs can dictate where they work, for how much, etc. They actually set up a medical school in the Uni a mile down the road from myself to train older people to become doctors - was tempted myself but decided that I could not hack the long hours at my age - so great is the apparent shortage.

One thing I have been hearing for years in Wales that you can train to be a physio or a radiologist, etc, part of which is on-hands training in a hospital but once you are qualified there are apparently few if any jobs. The Trusts, apparently, have an endless supply of trainees coming through and only keep a very small number of experienced staff.

I'd make a terrible medical person on account that I dislike people so much!

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less managers, individuals paid more -

But this is about service purchasing and negotiation. They're all going to be managers and support staff for managers. It's not going to be done by medics, or by history graduates, or by people they recruit from McDs.

Look at the salaries of even a middle manager in a private sector company of similar size, with similar budgets - it's vastly more than the equivalent in the public sector. The senior management are on even more colossal amounts of money.

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Isn't that a requirement?

perhaps - but I try my best to avoid psychopathy in myself, granted you do get them!

on the side - one or 2 GPs at my local surgery are excellent, genuinely caring, and a non-clood relatiove of mine is a GP and he gets genuinely affected by suffering in patients, good'uns definitely exist. One or two medical professionals on these fora, even tho I sometimes argue with them ideologically, clearly DO care about the clinical and patient outcomes

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One thing I have been hearing for years in Wales that you can train to be a physio or a radiologist, etc, part of which is on-hands training in a hospital but once you are qualified there are apparently few if any jobs. The Trusts, apparently, have an endless supply of trainees coming through and only keep a very small number of experienced staff.

What he said. The chaps in charge are doing to medicine what has already happened to others, ie nurses, physios, radiographers, etc. Trains lots and lots of people. Don't create a corresponding number of plum jobs, instead create many sub-optimal jobs that do not offer great career progression and of course, are cheaper. You can then dictate T&Cs and the plebs will bend over. An excellent byproduct is Blair & Brown crooning about how many "nurses and doctors and teachers" they have trained without mentioning how many are actually in full time career enhancing jobs.

Hence many people will be stuck at the salaryman equivalent forever despite being lured into the profession thinking they will be the top dog like the current lot.

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  • 245 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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