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jackalope

The Death Of The Japanese Motorcycle Industry

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From a historical perspective 2010 will be a very significant year in the motorcycle industry. Once in a generation we have a CB750 moment; a bike that completely rewrites the rules and advances the genre to a new level. Other examples of a CB750 moment were the GPz900R (1984), CBR900RR (1992) and R1 (1998). 2010's CB750 moment was interesting in that the bike that came along and broke the paradigm was, for the first time in 41 years, not Japanese: the BMW S1000RR.

In terms of both performance and engineering the BMW has rendered all other 1,000cc sports bikes technologically irrelevant and quite demonstrably the products of old thinking. The Japanese bike industry is mired in conservative introspection, incremental development and risk averse products. The technological lead has now been reclaimed by Europe. Can the Japanese bike industry reassert its technical dominance or is it now in a sclerotic death spiral? I say they're done.

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To be fair to them, the £/yen exchange rate isn't helping. Many European brands (like BMW, Triumph, Aprilia, Ducati, etc) look excellent value compared to their Japanese equivalents. I have to say, it's a good 5 years since I saw a Japanese bike that I thought about buying.

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Guest Noodle

From a historical perspective 2010 will be a very significant year in the motorcycle industry. Once in a generation we have a CB750 moment; a bike that completely rewrites the rules and advances the genre to a new level. Other examples of a CB750 moment were the GPz900R (1984), CBR900RR (1992) and R1 (1998). 2010's CB750 moment was interesting in that the bike that came along and broke the paradigm was, for the first time in 41 years, not Japanese: the BMW S1000RR.

In terms of both performance and engineering the BMW has rendered all other 1,000cc sports bikes technologically irrelevant and quite demonstrably the products of old thinking. The Japanese bike industry is mired in conservative introspection, incremental development and risk averse products. The technological lead has now been reclaimed by Europe. Can the Japanese bike industry reassert its technical dominance or is it now in a sclerotic death spiral? I say they're done.

I was taken aback by the sudden turn around by Moto Guzzi. I haven't seen a range of bikes quite so appealing (possibly to the older biker market) since . . . well ever.

They have soul and style (always did) but this is now coupled with quality. I don't see anything Japanese that really get the fire going. Also price, Yen doubling has resulted in heavy pricing for new stuff. A new ER6-F (souless boring thing) is near enough the price of a Guzzi now. Crackers!

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I was taken aback by the sudden turn around by Moto Guzzi. I haven't seen a range of bikes quite so appealing (possibly to the older biker market) since . . . well ever.

Europeans have always done styling, character and, with variable results, quality. What's interesting now is that the most technologically advanced products are all European. Apart from the S1000RR Beemer we've got the Ducati Multistrada with its electronically controlled suspension and Aprilia will shortly win World Superbike with a 65 deg, gear driven cam V4.

They best the Japanese can do lately are cautious reinterpretations of old concepts (VFR1200F) and shameless copies of successful European products (Yamaha Super Tenere 1200).

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Sorry. I'm still on Harley-Davidsons. Will the Japs make bikes soon? :blink:

Actually I'd rather have a Ducati or BMW.

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Europeans have always done styling, character and, with variable results, quality. What's interesting now is that the most technologically advanced products are all European. Apart from the S1000RR Beemer we've got the Ducati Multistrada with its electronically controlled suspension and Aprilia will shortly win World Superbike with a 65 deg, gear driven cam V4.

They best the Japanese can do lately are cautious reinterpretations of old concepts (VFR1200F) and shameless copies of successful European products (Yamaha Super Tenere 1200).

The Super Ten 750 was a success in the 80's/90's, although I take your point about it being a competitor for the R1200GS. Price tag starts at £14k!!! Guzzi have the Stelvios, £10k, depreciation appears savage so best pick up a couple of years old, low miles, £6k.

I like Guzzi's Norge 1200 too. Perhaps I'm getting old. Again, price/quality very competitive against the FJR1300 and others.

Moto%20Guzzi%20Norge%20GT%208V%2010.jpg

I think Moto Guzzi will now flourish, off the at risk register. The price, quality and timelessness of them, be my choice (I don't much like going fast, scares me).

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Sorry. I'm still on Harley-Davidsons. Will the Japs make bikes soon? :blink:

Actually I'd rather have a Ducati or BMW.

Good bike resource . . . Everthing here

I had no idea they were making Indians again. Has to be the ideal over HD's which never appealed to me.

Indean.jpg

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I think Moto Guzzi will now flourish, off the at risk register. The price, quality and timelessness of them, be my choice (I don't much like going fast, scares me).

The MGuzzis work very well and do not break! Unfortunately I am too tall and my knees don't fit! :(

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The MGuzzis work very well and do not break! Unfortunately I am too tall and my knees don't fit! :(

Well saw a bit orff!

I'm only 4'9" so perhaps a bit big for me.

Moto%20Guzzi%201200%20SE%20Grisso%20%201.jpg

:wub:

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I had no idea they were making Indians again. Has to be the ideal over HD's which never appealed to me.

Tne Indians were always prettier machines! Always with sidevalve engine, and hand change gears! Went bust in '53!

Those look good, but...

Not sure it would go with my PINK CHAPS, and DISCO BALL MIRROR HELMET! :blink:

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Tne Indians were always prettier machines! Always with sidevalve engine, and hand change gears! Went bust in '53!

Those look good, but...

Not sure it would go with my PINK CHAPS, and DISCO BALL MIRROR HELMET! :blink:

Resurrected like Guzzi! 2009, 2010 models.

Indian

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Everybody copies each other.. Japan copied the UK motorcycle industry in the 1980s, Twin spar frames only came about copying British designs.

The S1000R is not actually that remarkable, the only remarkable part of it is the street legality, nothing more. 2-3 years time Honda will have taken one apart and copied the things which makes it remarkable and integrated it into their machines. Anyway not everybody can afford European. (Old rule wealthy people buy European everybody else Japanes)

It's a good approach as somebody else takes the risks, with Honda/Yam/Suzi/Kawaks massive industrial might they can very quickly catch up. And £ for £ the Japanese ones are going to be better value. Added to the fact that 99% of riders cannot even reach the tiny bit of extra performance one has over the other makes it absolutely irrelevant. Therefore for most people the > < bit of extra performance matters not one jot.

For those that do they are racers or show offs. At rivington there are a ton of posers with bikes. They have expensive CBR1000RRs but have less than 1000 miles on them, they can't ride for jack and on old rat bikes I've gone round them on corners easily.

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The Super Ten 750 was a success in the 80's/90's, although I take your point about it being a competitor for the R1200GS. Price tag starts at £14k!!! Guzzi have the Stelvios, £10k, depreciation appears savage so best pick up a couple of years old, low miles, £6k.

The new Super Ten is currently only available with pretty much all the kit and caboodle on it already - the R1200GS comes out to a similar price point when you match the specs.

The basic spec Super Ten will follow (next year, I think) - the chances are that Yamaha might be able to make a shaft final drive offroad-style bike that doesn't break, unlike the GS. The Stelvio might be up there too, although I don't know if enough have been sold to prove it statistically.

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Everybody copies each other.. Japan copied the UK motorcycle industry in the 1980s, Twin spar frames only came about copying British designs.

The S1000R is not actually that remarkable, the only remarkable part of it is the street legality, nothing more. 2-3 years time Honda will have taken one apart and copied the things which makes it remarkable and integrated it into their machines. Anyway not everybody can afford European. (Old rule wealthy people buy European everybody else Japanes)

It's a good approach as somebody else takes the risks, with Honda/Yam/Suzi/Kawaks massive industrial might they can very quickly catch up. And £ for £ the Japanese ones are going to be better value. Added to the fact that 99% of riders cannot even reach the tiny bit of extra performance one has over the other makes it absolutely irrelevant. Therefore for most people the > < bit of extra performance matters not one jot.

For those that do they are racers or show offs. At rivington there are a ton of posers with bikes. They have expensive CBR1000RRs but have less than 1000 miles on them, they can't ride for jack and on old rat bikes I've gone round them on corners easily.

Yes, they'll take the technology and re-wrap it in the form of bland sushi.

Japanese bike remind me of . . .

hello-kitty-angel.jpg

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The S10 and the BMWs aren't really adventure tourers though. BMW X-challenges . TE610, KTM640 adventures even TT600R are adventure bikes.

LWR made people think only BMWs of this size can take on such roads. Big pretend off roaders actually are so much less forgiving and require incredible skill to take them off road. Such bikes are like the 4x4s you see on the roads today, all probably much less capable than a basic landy defender.

Kevin in 2008 crossed Mongolia on a massive BMW. He dropped it loads of times, Many times he had to wait for a mongolian to come around and help him lift it. While my XT was dropped and buried in sand and mud several times and I only needed help once to pick it up.

Too much to go wrong on those mega bikes. Heh EVERY single team which crossed Russia in 2009 had their engines blow up if they took F800s. BMW paid them to hush this up.

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Yes, they'll take the technology and re-wrap it in the form of bland sushi.

Japanese bike remind me of . . .

Beats the hell out of Ducatis which use cam belts (which cost an uber load to replace), BMWs which require special software to service (else they whine and beep at you constantly) Or Triumph engines which explode ever 10K (I've known many owners to have the big end go)

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The new Super Ten is currently only available with pretty much all the kit and caboodle on it already - the R1200GS comes out to a similar price point when you match the specs.

The basic spec Super Ten will follow (next year, I think) - the chances are that Yamaha might be able to make a shaft final drive offroad-style bike that doesn't break, unlike the GS. The Stelvio might be up there too, although I don't know if enough have been sold to prove it statistically.

Only real downside is the tank size and range (only 18 litres), but looks . . . hmmmm . . .

Moto%20Guzzi%20Stelvio%201200%2009.jpg

Moto%20Guzzi%20Stelvio%2009.jpg

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Beats the hell out of Ducatis which use cam belts (which cost an uber load to replace), BMWs which require special software to service (else they whine and beep at you constantly) Or Triumph engines which explode ever 10K (I've known many owners to have the big end go)

Only option I have here is this . . . :(

Kawasaki%20ER-6f%2010%20%202.jpg

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Since this is HPC, I think we need to go a little more TFH.

This bike:

m2-1.jpg

http://www.hdtusa.com/vehicle-m1030-m2.php

Is capable of running on Diesel, Biofuel, Aviation fuel and four other military grades of petroleum, it can traverse water 2ft deep and has a tank range of over 300 miles.

Just the thing for when society breaks down.

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Beats the hell out of Ducatis which use cam belts (which cost an uber load to replace),

Nah, they are cheap enough to buy (around £30 a set) and easy to fit (remove a couple of screwed on covers) and it will take about 45 mins work on most Ducati models.

The main problem is needing to do them every 15,000 miles.

Ducati reliability is very good these days, certainly up to the levels of most equivalent Japanese machines. Most of the pub talk about them breaking down all the time is based on the 80s/early 90s, which was a different company more or less.

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Since this is HPC, I think we need to go a little more TFH.

This bike:

m2-1.jpg

http://www.hdtusa.com/vehicle-m1030-m2.php

Is capable of running on Diesel, Biofuel, Aviation fuel and four other military grades of petroleum, it can traverse water 2ft deep and has a tank range of over 300 miles.

Just the thing for when society breaks down.

Ideal for where I live. Was looking for an MT350E, perhaps down the US military bases. Those are actually a British design, Armstrong, with a few changes.

Harley%20Davidson%20MT%20350E%20Army%20Bike.jpg

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Only option I have here is this . . . :(

Nah Yam and Kawaka are moving everything but their flagship models to Thailand. (I.e. everything bar the ZZR1400 ZX10R and B king) so you'll have a big selection soon.

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Nah Yam and Kawaka are moving everything but their flagship models to Thailand. (I.e. everything bar the ZZR1400 ZX10R and B king) so you'll have a big selection soon.

For export only. :(

They make Triumphs here but under the Board of Trade rules they are for export only and attract the same import tariffs as if they were made abroad.

There is an FTA with Japan developing, but it's years/decades until the import tariffs are low enough to justify it.

ER6-F is the only bigger bike made here for the Thai market, good as i is, I ride one quite often, it's the only choice.

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  • 145 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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