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Liberating The Land

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With planning targets being thrown out by the coalition, this is an interesting take on where we can go from the planning lock:

Liberating the land

Intro:

http://www.iea.org.uk/record.jsp?type=book&ID=134

Booklet:

http://www.iea.org.uk/files/upld-book134pdf?.pdf

Tory discussion on it:

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2010/08/pay-off-the-nimbies.html

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This seems to be focussing on the people who already own land, being given more rights over what they can do with it. Not so much on the rest of us, the landless.

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This seems to be focussing on the people who already own land, being given more rights over what they can do with it. Not so much on the rest of us, the landless.

Land's not much use if your neighbour stops you building a house on it.

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This seems to be focussing on the people who already own land, being given more rights over what they can do with it. Not so much on the rest of us, the landless.

Agricultural land is relatively cheap. IIRC, it's only about 5k an acre. You can build several family homes on an acre of 1 with plenty of space grow some some crops/animals. In short, if you can build on more land, it will bring the cost of housing down.

Note that we have built on only about 10% of the uk and land prices make up the lion's share of property prices.

EDIT: typo - sent from phone

Edited by Traktion

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Agricultural land is relatively cheap. IIRC, it's only about 5k an acre. You can build several family homes on an acre of 1 with plenty of space godsend some crops/animals. In short, if you can build on more land, it will bring the cost of housing down.

Note that we have built on only about 10% of the uk and land prices make up the lion's share of property prices.

I hope they make some radical changes, so at least we may (perhaps) see the efffects.

I absolutely will not say 'told you so' when it does not pan out the way you might expect ;)

Edited by Stars

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I hope they make some radical changes, so at least we may (perhaps) see the efffects.

I absolutely will not say 'told you so' when it does not pan out the way you might expect ;)

I will though!

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I hope they make some radical changes, so at least we may (perhaps) see the efffects.

I absolutely will not say 'told you so' when it does not pan out the way you might expect ;)

Ha! We will have to wait and see, I suppose.

A combination of easy planning in the country (for us country folk) and LVT for the city (for the town folk) would rebalance things nicely. IMO, there is hope that both could be pushed, just as long as the old Tories don't get too comfy.

I've been hearing a lot about Hayek (like the free market money stuff), Adam Smith (like the land value tax stuff) and others recently, with the free market biased think tanks starting to spread their wings again. I don't want to build up my hopes, but compared to the last decade or so, at least it gives us something worthy of hope!

I get the feeling the centralists are on the retreat, but it remains to be seen whether the VIs start to choke off change or not. So far, I have been pleasantly surprised by the talk, but the proof will be in the actions.

Edited by Traktion

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I've been hearing a lot about Hayek (like the free market money stuff), Adam Smith (like the land value tax stuff) and others recently, with the free market biased think tanks starting to spread their wings again. I don't want to build up my hopes, but compared to the last decade or so, at least it gives us something worthy of hope!

I get the feeling the centralists are on the retreat, but it remains to be seen whether the VIs start to choke off change or not. So far, I have been pleasantly surprised by the talk, but the proof will be in the actions.

I don't believe for a second that the people who own pretty much all the land and resources in the country would allow any form of land value tax, and that is pretty much the Tory base and party membership covered.

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i dont think so

the centralists continue to plan the one world currency and when they think the time is right it will be put forward as the only way of solving the financial crisis

I'm sure they will try, but in the event of state failure, what power base do they use as leverage?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the tide has turned, but there is a suggestion of it beginning to turn. A man can hope, can't he? :)

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I don't believe for a second that the people who own pretty much all the land and resources in the country would allow any form of land value tax, and that is pretty much the Tory base and party membership covered.

That is the problem; the bank bench Tory toffs will be dead set against it. Whether the more classical liberal, free market thinkers can hold onto the balance of power long enough remains to be seen.

I'm still hoping for the 'democrat' (read: socialist) wing of the lib dems splits of back to Labour and leaves us with a genuine, Liberal (in the classical sense) party. Having a tripartite of conservatives, liberals and socialists could add an interesting dynamic in politics. Anyway, I digress... if we have less government and freer planning, it would be a good start.

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I'm sure they will try, but in the event of state failure, what power base do they use as leverage?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the tide has turned, but there is a suggestion of it beginning to turn. A man can hope, can't he? :)

we're hoping and we're trying

we made need some arrows though, but not paper ones

Edited by lowrentyieldmakessense(honest!)

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That is the problem; the bank bench Tory toffs will be dead set against it. Whether the more classical liberal, free market thinkers can hold onto the balance of power long enough remains to be seen.

I'm still hoping for the 'democrat' (read: socialist) wing of the lib dems splits of back to Labour and leaves us with a genuine, Liberal (in the classical sense) party. Having a tripartite of conservatives, liberals and socialists could add an interesting dynamic in politics. Anyway, I digress... if we have less government and freer planning, it would be a good start.

I mentioned LVT on Douglas Carswell's blog in the most reasonable terms possible and it didn't get past the mods (which is obviously Carswell himself).

I consider him and his pal Hannan about as libertarian as the party gets and they refuse to even discuss the idea; I think it's clear which side their bread is buttered.

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Agricultural land is relatively cheap. IIRC, it's only about 5k an acre. You can build several family homes on an acre of 1 with plenty of space godsend some crops/animals. In short, if you can build on more land, it will bring the cost of housing down.

Note that we have built on only about 10% of the uk and land prices make up the lion's share of property prices.

Spot on!

Is there any way to get small concessions out of the government? Although they had to get rid of housing targets due to the fact that it was the Nimbies and fox hunters who kept the Tories alive electorally in 2001 and 2005, they know that more house building will be a good thing for the economy and most Tory politicians I know want cheaper houses because they think that while private rentals are good for labour mobility, the idea of owning a house is one of the ways in which Labour inclined voters become Tory inclined voters.

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I mentioned LVT on Douglas Carswell's blog in the most reasonable terms possible and it didn't get past the mods (which is obviously Carswell himself).

I consider him and his pal Hannan about as libertarian as the party gets and they refuse to even discuss the idea; I think it's clear which side their bread is buttered.

I hear what you're saying, but then the majority of this board seem pretty unconvinced/unaware of what a LVT can do. Suggesting new taxation also swims against the free market current, until you realise that without it (or more radical Injinesque changes), the market is far from free and easy to monopolise (particularly with tight planning restrictions).

That said, if the 'progressive conservatives' (the classical liberal wing of the tories) aren't giving a LVT due consideration, despite one of their heroes (Adam Smith) discussing the importance of it, it is rather depressing.

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I hear what you're saying, but then the majority of this board seem pretty unconvinced/unaware of what a LVT can do. Suggesting new taxation also swims against the free market current, until you realise that without it (or more radical Injinesque changes), the market is far from free and easy to monopolise (particularly with tight planning restrictions).

That said, if the 'progressive conservatives' (the classical liberal wing of the tories) aren't giving a LVT due consideration, despite one of their heroes (Adam Smith) discussing the importance of it, it is rather depressing.

They are thieves, killers, liars and other evil assholes, parasites and fraudsters.

What else would you expect?

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Agricultural land is relatively cheap. IIRC, it's only about 5k an acre. You can build several family homes on an acre of 1 with plenty of space grow some some crops/animals. In short, if you can build on more land, it will bring the cost of housing down.

Note that we have built on only about 10% of the uk and land prices make up the lion's share of property prices.

EDIT: typo - sent from phone

But also note where a significant portion of the rest of the 90% is or its geograpy. There are vast sections of the UK that you couldnt build on even if you wanted to - flood plains (yes i know some muppets have been building on them) mountains, moorland etc. or simply too far from where people want to live, yes there is lots of land around Durness but no economic need for many people to live there...

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But also note where a significant portion of the rest of the 90% is or its geograpy. There are vast sections of the UK that you couldnt build on even if you wanted to - flood plains (yes i know some muppets have been building on them) mountains, moorland etc. or simply too far from where people want to live, yes there is lots of land around Durness but no economic need for many people to live there...

I believe that is one of the reasons for a land value tax - you pay an amount related to the amenities you use. This gives incentive to do business in cheaper areas, which de-centralises away from a London based economy.

Of course, there are those of us who work from home, or in small towns, where living out in the country is just fine... preferred in fact. Just as long as we're not stopped from building a home on some land, that is!

P.S. That 10% figure was for England and Wales, IIRC. A UK figure, including NI and Scotland, would likely be lower. I think Wales was about 3-4%, although you could argue part of that was due to the landscape. You can build houses on hillsides though.

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Spot on!

Is there any way to get small concessions out of the government? Although they had to get rid of housing targets due to the fact that it was the Nimbies and fox hunters who kept the Tories alive electorally in 2001 and 2005, they know that more house building will be a good thing for the economy and most Tory politicians I know want cheaper houses because they think that while private rentals are good for labour mobility, the idea of owning a house is one of the ways in which Labour inclined voters become Tory inclined voters.

I think it depends on where you live. Here in Northern Ireland, post crash they have been busy tearing down planning regulations. I have a relative (in law) who works for the planning office over here and he says that there is little objection to building out in the country now. This tallies with the collapsing prices of land with planning permission I've seen here. They're still not at the agricultural price level, but they're a fraction of pre-2008 prices.

As for the rest of the UK, I don't know. For England, I guess the hope is that the new Tory planning policy will help.

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I don't believe for a second that the people who own pretty much all the land and resources in the country would allow any form of land value tax, and that is pretty much the Tory base and party membership covered.

As a fully signed up part of both the Tory base and party membership, I can assure you that we are not the people the leadership think of first, unless they think they will lose donations and/or activists. The votes are in the bag. Remember the Tories let Lloyds go through a torrid time in the 1990s (rightly) but how many of their party membership lost their shirt on that? A shed load. For the Tory Parliamentary party to think twice on Europe the party membership had to tear the house down before their views were considered.

Believe me, the Tory base is not the first priority for the Tory leadership, just like low paid manufacturing workers were not the first thing that New Labour thought about when deciding their immigration policy.

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I believe that is one of the reasons for a land value tax - you pay an amount related to the amenities you use. This gives incentive to do business in cheaper areas, which de-centralises away from a London based economy.

Of course, there are those of us who work from home, or in small towns, where living out in the country is just fine... preferred in fact. Just as long as we're not stopped from building a home on some land, that is!

P.S. That 10% figure was for England and Wales, IIRC. A UK figure, including NI and Scotland, would likely be lower. I think Wales was about 3-4%, although you could argue part of that was due to the landscape. You can build houses on hillsides though.

I agree with you on the basic point with regards getting away from this 'London is the centre of the world' point of view. London gets far more money than it should in relation to much of the rest of England especially. But on many levels I also quite like it as it keeps everyone in the South East making the rest of the UK slightly nicer for the rest of us.

The problem with more people living in the country is the lack of infrastructure that private companies will never provide and the Government claim to not be able to afford. In much of it there is no public transport that is of any real use and rural dwellers are disproportionately (sp?) hit by high fuel duty as there is no real alternative. Also what city dwellers take for granted such as (fast) Broadband can be hard to come by or again expensive.

* oh and the 10% figure initially quoted was described as that for the 'UK' I did think it high for including Scotland especially.

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I mentioned LVT on Douglas Carswell's blog in the most reasonable terms possible and it didn't get past the mods

It's because it's about a new tax. Carswell did not go into politics to increase the tax burden. You should talk about abolishing income tax and then, in the small print, talk about a land value tax - and talk about it as a tax on consumption. If its tax displacement they may be interested.

As Carswell is reasonably well versed in Libertarian views (or at least claims to be) he'll probably have some idea about Henry George and Gerogism but not really see why a previous generation of libs went ga-ga for it.

(which is obviously Carswell himself).

On comments? I think it's probably a researcher. It may be an idea to write a quick note asking why the comment was not approved. Some poor researcher may get a bit of a shock.

I consider him and his pal Hannan about as libertarian as the party gets and they refuse to even discuss the idea; I think it's clear which side their bread is buttered.

I bet it's all down to tax. The right wing Tories are mostly monetarists and are (mostly) rather dismissive of the house price boom.

Edited by IP Newcomer

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i dont think so

the centralists continue to plan the one world currency and when they think the time is right it will be put forward as the only way of solving the financial crisis

Yeah, and when that happens I take up arms - there will be revolution.

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  • 261 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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