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Stressed-Out

Where Is Ttrtr?

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Am I just reading the wrong posts, or has TTRTR bid a hasty retreat from this site ever since, well, house prices started to fall for real?

I had quite a soft spot for him really...

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Guest Bart of Darkness

One of his other forum "personalities" took him over completely?

He got confused and forgot "who" he really was.

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More anecdotal evidence........ :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Good thread....and good to see TTRTR!

On a serious note, we really should cherish the bulls on this site. I for one don't want to blindly keep talking myself into the idea that prices will continue falling if the hard evidence shows the opposite, so keep posting mate!

BTW, how's the weather where you are? Bit overcast here in Gothenburg today. Hoope it picks up so I can do some skydiving tomorrow.

JP.

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Guest Time 2 raise Interest Rates

Market Report by Mickey Clark.

Has our fastest growing housebuilder, Persimmon, set its sights on a place among

Britain's top 100 companies with the help of a near £2 billion bid for rival George

Wimpey? That is the question being posed in the square mile where speculators

have been chasing Wimpey shares.

A total 1.7 million of them had changed hands by close of businesslast night.

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welcome back, my child...

tell me: how are the rents these days?

Absolutely fantastic. See his long thread from a couple of days back over "The fate of those who never buy." Seems that my savings of £2-3k / month renting over buying are all BS. Oh, and that doesn't include the falls in London house prices that even Hometrack are reporting, plus the ongoing falls in prices over the next 2-3 years. Still seems there's never been a better time to be a BTL landlord -and renting is still "wasted" money. :blink:

Nomadd

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Absolutely fantastic. See his long thread from a couple of days back over "The fate of those who never buy."

And you completely missed the point of it.

i.e. that in 10-20 years time there will be a lot of people hit by the looming pensions crisis who can no longer afford to pay rent on a decent home once they retire. They will end up living wherever the state decides to put them

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And you completely missed the point of it.

i.e. that in 10-20 years time there will be a lot of people hit by the looming pensions crisis who can no longer afford to pay rent on a decent home once they retire. They will end up living wherever the state decides to put them

See my reply to the other thread I mentioned, where you've just said the same thing.

Now try my approach - as you completely missed the point of it.

Say 1k / month on average saved by renting over buying. I've already proved I've managed that averaged out over the last 15-20 years. Now, stick that money in a well-managed stock fund, or better still, bone up and manage it yourself. Just think how much £1k / month, x 12 (i.e. a year) x 20 (number of years I've been doing that, as I haven't been wasting it on a mortgage to make a Banker even richer) and then add 8-12% annual growth with all dividends reinvested (that's the long term stock market average). If you can't be bothered getting your calculator out, let me assure you it's a staggering amount of money - and you/me still have a few decades worth of work left before we retire - so add in all those additional years at 8-12% - plus todays rental savings over a mortgage of £2k+ / month - and you bought youself a very, very wealthy retirement indeed (i.e. a final pension fund in the multiples of £millions - seriously.) And all without winning the lottery - or touching property. Beleive me, the numbers do add up - my Broker statements each month confirm it. :D

Nomadd

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Say 1k / month on average saved by renting over buying

You're operating on a different level to the masses here Nomadd.

The average property is around £160k.

Can you explain to me how it is possible to rent this property for £1k per month less than buying it? I would guess the monthly repayments on a 25yr mge would be around £1k for a repayment mortgage.

Your scheme sounds like an endowment whilst renting. A lot of homebuyers got their fingers burnt with endowments.

The problem with doing it your way is that the rent rises with inflation.

Endowment mortgages are dodgy enough, but I'd imagine your method using real world salaries/sums would be even worse for the average family.

I'm trying to look at Mr/Mrs average here Nomadd.

Sadly, I believe TTRTR and I will be proved right for many people when they retire.

Edited by Without_a_Paddle

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Say 1k / month on average saved by renting over buying. I've already proved I've managed that averaged out over the last 15-20 years.

Just reread this bit. You've SAVED £240k by renting over the last 20 years.

240k over 20 years would probably have got you a £90k house in 1985.

1985 is pre boom. Quite a house in other words.

So you have SAVED the equivalent of a 1985 90k house by renting for 20 years?

You are quite a guy Nomadd. I can see why you drive a Ferrari...

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Sadly, I believe TTRTR and I will be proved right for many people when they retire.

Sadly, I agree. But I think it's the crazy levels of debt people have got themselves into that has caused this - and most of that is house price greed (and I include MEW in that.) And FTB's and young families are now being asked/forced to finance that greed.

You rightly state that although the average house price is £160k, that's still BIG money for most people - it represents by far the largest level of debt they will ever take on. If that level of debt wasn't there, then people would have a lot more money to tuck away for their retirement, or start a business, or retrain themselves, or do something equally useful and beneficial for themselves and society at large. Sure, some of the silly buggers would still blow all their cash every month, but many people wouldn't. The problem with current house prices is that an entire generation of UK people don't have the option of doing those good things, as they are crippled by crazy housing costs which hurt us all in the long run. And buying a property at todays inflated prices in the hope that it will provide you with a pension isn't the solution; I mean, what good use is that of your money over 25 years, apart from making a few already rich Bankers even richer? As I demonstrated in my own case, you can use your money for much better things - but only if you've got it to spare in the first place.

And remember, it's a big world, and the UK is a tiny island. We can't just carry on bleeding each other dry with inflated property prices and expect the rest of the world to follow suit. If we don't start investing in something real in this country we are going to be totally screwed, hence why I like to keep my assets a lot more liquid than UK bricks-n-mortar. Sky high house prices hurt almost everybody; they actually benefit very few - and that's coming from a businessman, not a left-wing socialist.

Still, I have high hopes that the impending HPC will bring relief to those who bother to hang on for it. :D

Nomadd

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Just reread this bit. You've SAVED £240k by renting over the last 20 years.

240k over 20 years would probably have got you a £90k house in 1985.

1985 is pre boom. Quite a house in other words.

So you have SAVED the equivalent of a 1985 90k house by renting for 20 years?

You are quite a guy Nomadd. I can see why you drive a Ferrari...

Er, your reading (and re-reading skills) aren't really that good then, are they?

And '85 was pre-boom, but you forgot to mention the bust the other side of it.

I didn't want a house in 1985, or anytime since. I work Freelance and move around a bit. In 1985 I was a lot more concerned about starting my freelance career than killing it off before it even started over the fear of not being able to take any risks as I had a huge mortgage hanging over my head. Renting is the best option for me, always has been. But then I said all that several times in the many posts/threads we've been running...

Still, it's suprising that having read, and reread a post, you still only got as far as the first line, so let me quote the rest of it for you here, just so you dont miss it:

Now, stick that money in a well-managed stock fund, or better still, bone up and manage it yourself. Just think how much £1k / month, x 12 (i.e. a year) x 20 (number of years I've been doing that, as I haven't been wasting it on a mortgage to make a Banker even richer) and then add 8-12% annual growth with all dividends reinvested (that's the long term stock market average). If you can't be bothered getting your calculator out, let me assure you it's a staggering amount of money - and you/me still have a few decades worth of work left before we retire - so add in all those additional years at 8-12% - plus todays rental savings over a mortgage of £2k+ / month - and you bought youself a very, very wealthy retirement indeed (i.e. a final pension fund in the multiples of £millions - seriously.) And all without winning the lottery - or touching property. Beleive me, the numbers do add up - my Broker statements each month confirm it.

What bit about compound interest of 8-12% over 20 years don't you understand? Hint: it's a LOT bigger than £240k. Do the math. Then think of an HPC over the next 3-5 years - the property I showed is already falling at 10k / month. Now think of the figure you just computed above, plus £2.7k saved rent per month added to it, plus an additional 8-12% interest over 3-5 years. That adds up to a much bigger house than £80k would have bought you in 1985 - try about a £300k house, and that's £300k house in 1985 prices.

Jeez, for a man who keeps chiming in about pensions and long-term investing, your not very clued up, are you?

Nomadd

EDIT: Spelling. And as you are struggling so much, here's a linkto a calculator: http://www.youngmoney.com/calculators/savi...&OVMTC=standard

The calculator shows: If you save £1,000 per month your savings grow to £929,504.00 after 20 years. This includes a starting balance of £1,000 and a 12.00% annual rate of return (remember, all dividends reinvested) and £1,000 / month added to it along the way.

Now, just 3 years saved additional non-mortgage payments (by renting) at 2.7k / month added to the above figure, and again compounded at 12% per annum is £1,422,00.00 Add on the at least 80k that the property I showed will lose in value, and there's a cool £1.5 million.

Now, you were bleating on about how poor I'll be in my retirement - and all my money will go in rent. So, let's do as I said, and put that money away for 25 years. Lets drop the rate of return down to just 8% (i.e. much less than the stock market has averaged over the last 100 years), and blow £500k right now on wine, women and song!!!! Stick £1 million away, and keep adding just £1k / month to it: when you retire in 25 years that's £7,763,315. Sure, inflation will have eaten into this, but I think you'd just be able to scrape your rent together each month with that wad of cash sat in the bank!

If you think the above figures are nonsense, then redo them yourself. Then ask yourself why Berkshire Hathaway's Warren buffet - who follows the same long-term thinking, and has had Berkshire pulling just over 26% all these years - is worth no less than $36 billion. Oh, and he lives in a house worth about £200k. And you might want to read up on his views on house price bubbles.

Edited by Nomadd

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Now, stick that money in a well-managed stock fund, or better still, bone up and manage it yourself. Just think how much £1k / month, x 12 (i.e. a year) x 20 (number of years I've been doing that, as I haven't been wasting it on a mortgage to make a Banker even richer) and then add 8-12% annual growth with all dividends reinvested (that's the long term stock market average).

For your wild claims of saving by renting over buying to hold true you could only really compare by investing the true difference between a month's rent and a month's mortgage. typically a lot less than £100 in 1985? (Not £1k)

This applies for year 1.

In further years you will be actually be able to invest LESS and LESS because your rent is going up each year compared to the buyer who pays the same mortgage (ignoring IRs) every year. It is the mortgage payer who will best be able to exploit the compound interest scheme you so dearly love. How? By investing the difference he/she is saving compared to renting several years down the line.

Oh dear.... So where's the £240k saving Nomadd? You are deluding yourself that you have saved this amount of money by renting for 20years.

Jeez, for a man who keeps chiming in about pensions and long-term investing, your not very clued up, are you?

Maybe not, but I am good at spotting bullshitters...

(Nice try though, Nomadd)

Edited by Without_a_Paddle

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Maybe not, but I am good at spotting bullshitters...

(Nice try though, Nomadd)

Dude, you couldn't spot one if it jumped up and hit you in the face. Read the above figures I edited in for you to my post whilst you were typing in your reply, as I figured you be too lazy to bother.

It's taken you all these posts on this thread before you finally finshed off the way TTRTR did on the other thread - by ignoring everything I said and resorting to calling poeple "bullshitters". Is losing an argument so hard to take? Do you and TTRTR share the same EA's office?

Piece of advice: listen to those who are in a much better position than you - you might learn something. B)

Nomadd

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For your wild claims of saving by renting over buying to hold true you could only really compare by investing the true difference between a month's rent and a month's mortgage.

Edit to follow...

Which is exactly what this thread's been about. And the one of TTRTR's you also contributed too! Don't you actually read any of the posts properly?

Seems you've edited all of your post away, where you've stooped to calling me a bullshitter, all in response to not agreeing with someone's very strong argument. Look, I don't really care what you believe, but I'm certainly not out to BS anyone, so stop with the insults, OK?

Do the figures, and come back and tell me my Broker's going bust on my account (I don't think he is... :lol: )

EDIT: Just noticed you've put the insults back in. I guess that means we're finished. I'll go on delluding myself like you said - all the way to the Bank. I'll see you in 25 years, when you have no retirement fund as you decided to blow it all on a crashed overpriced housing asset; maybe I can find you a part-time cleaning job - do you have any experience with Ferraris? :D

Nomadd

Edited by Nomadd

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Just noticed you've put the insults back in.

I suppose your earlier statement below doesn't count as an insult?

Er, your reading (and re-reading skills) aren't really that good then, are they?
I guess that means we're finished. I'll go on delluding myself like you said - all the way to the Bank. I'll see you in 25 years, when you have no retirement fund as you decided to blow it all on a crashed overpriced housing asset; maybe I can find you a part-time cleaning job - do you have any experience with Ferraris?

And now you're annoyed. Annoyed because your (edit:) b*llsh*t statement about saving 240k by renting over 20 years has been exposed.

Actually I do have funds. I have invested using compound interest since paying off my mortgage several years back. :D:D

I'll see you in 25 years

Maybe I'll be your landlord in 25 years! (TTRTR will probably get there first)

You can give me/him some of your compound interest.

Edit: Didn't realise b*llsh*t qualifies for censorship. What tender ears we HPCers have.

Edited by Without_a_Paddle

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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