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goldilocksporridge

The Uk Is David Brent Nation

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David Brent Nation

It seems that managers and leaders get away with murder these days -we all see it every day. Bosses who bully, don't have a clue what is going on, take no responsibiliy for anything, put there own egos over the company, these type of bosses spring up like weeds everywhere. - and once these weeds take root in companies they hang on for years bleeding companies dry - getting big paypackets, moving from one mess up to another, causing chaos whereever they go but always looking to shift blame to to other people. Anyone else who behaves like this is quickly shown the door.

I always wonder why companies tolerate them - Is it possible that no matter what person they choose as leader they are going to be critised and attacked - micromanaging might be attacked, but equally you can be attacked for not being aware of the issues.

No matter what person they put in charge won't have all the answers, or someone is going to attack them for genuine reasons or maybe just jealousy - therefore they think the best thing is to put the biggest assholes in charge because they are insenstive and self serving they can take all the hassle and abuse that comes with managing.

Basically a self serving almost sociopathic mindset is required for getting to the top - just doing your job well and trying to egalitarian will only get you so far.

I mean deep down we can be calculating assholes if we are honest - maybe top managers just have the guts to be themselves.

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David Brent Nation

It seems that managers and leaders get away with murder these days -we all see it every day.  Bosses who bully, don't have a clue what is going on, take no responsibiliy for anything, put there own egos over the company, these type of bosses spring up like weeds everywhere. - and once these weeds take root in companies they hang on for years bleeding companies dry  - getting big paypackets, moving from one mess up to another, causing chaos whereever they go but always looking to shift blame to to other people.  Anyone else who behaves like this is quickly shown the door.

I always wonder why companies tolerate them - Is it possible that no matter what person they choose as leader they are going to be critised and attacked - micromanaging might be attacked, but equally you can be attacked for not being aware of the issues.

No matter what person they put in charge won't have all the answers, or someone is going to attack them for genuine reasons or maybe just jealousy  - therefore they think the best thing is to put the biggest assholes in charge because they are insenstive and self serving they can take all the hassle and abuse that comes with managing.

Basically a self serving almost sociopathic mindset is required for getting to the top - just doing your job well and trying to egalitarian will only get you so far.

I mean deep down we can be calculating assholes if we are honest - maybe top managers just have the guts to be themselves.

I blame it on the trend of promoting touchy, freely HR types in response to increasing payouts for employee litigation for discrimination etc.  People who specialise in HR are normally feeble minded in everything except HR, and so  make bad managers particularly when dealing in technical subjects. If there weren't so many PC rules, companies could work with smaller staff and be more efficient and likely there would be more companies about.

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I blame it on the trend of promoting touchy, freely HR types in response to increasing payouts for employee litigation for discrimination etc.  People who specialise in HR are normally feeble minded in everything except HR, and so  make bad managers particularly when dealing in technical subjects. If there weren't so many PC rules, companies could work with smaller staff and be more efficient and likely there would be more companies about.

have you ever considered that HR might be a way of de-programming potentially ruthless pretenders to the throne before they REALLY start getting ideas?

...those who are outspoken and do their own thing get called into the office and reminded that "there is no I in team!!.....you are a team player,aren't you?"

the correct respnse should really be,"you're quite correct,there is no I in team,but there is a ME"

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have you ever considered that HR might be a way of de-programming potentially ruthless pretenders to the throne before they REALLY start getting ideas?

...those who are outspoken and do their own thing get called into the office and reminded that "there is no I in team!!.....you are a team player,aren't you?"

the correct respnse should really be,"you're quite correct,there is no I in team,but there is a ME"

How about, "there may be no I in team but there is a u in c**t?"

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David Brent Nation

It seems that managers and leaders get away with murder these days -we all see it every day. Bosses who bully, don't have a clue what is going on, take no responsibiliy for anything, put there own egos over the company, these type of bosses spring up like weeds everywhere. - and once these weeds take root in companies they hang on for years bleeding companies dry - getting big paypackets, moving from one mess up to another, causing chaos whereever they go but always looking to shift blame to to other people. Anyone else who behaves like this is quickly shown the door.

I always wonder why companies tolerate them - Is it possible that no matter what person they choose as leader they are going to be critised and attacked - micromanaging might be attacked, but equally you can be attacked for not being aware of the issues.

No matter what person they put in charge won't have all the answers, or someone is going to attack them for genuine reasons or maybe just jealousy - therefore they think the best thing is to put the biggest assholes in charge because they are insenstive and self serving they can take all the hassle and abuse that comes with managing.

Basically a self serving almost sociopathic mindset is required for getting to the top - just doing your job well and trying to egalitarian will only get you so far.

I mean deep down we can be calculating assholes if we are honest - maybe top managers just have the guts to be themselves.

I went to an induction day for new managers at BT 13 years ago. One of the speakers was a bright shining star in the company - a fellow in his early to mid thirties - who, to the seeeming approval of his peers, informed us that the way to get to the top was with this mindset and behaviour - something we should all emulate. Of course the way he presented it was all wonderful and beneficial, but upon speaking to my own line manager about this guy, I discovered that, as I suspected, he had moved from project to project leaving messes that blew up in the poor sods' faces that had to come and clean up after him. That company was incredibly dysfunctional. I knew one guy who started up his own company inside BT, using their employees and working out of their offices without anyone knowing, all the while he was having his salary and an MBA at the LBS being paid for by BT. Breathtaking chutzpah.

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Basically a self serving almost sociopathic mindset is required for getting to the top - just doing your job well and trying to egalitarian will only get you so far.

I mean deep down we can be calculating assholes if we are honest - maybe top managers just have the guts to be themselves.

There is a simple fix, introduce democracy in the company.

When your team votes on whether you keep your job every six months, it focuses management on doing their jobs properly.

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One of the big problems is that often the most able staff don't, to use a ghastly Apprentice fetish phrase, 'step-up' when management roles become available and you're left to choose between those who've applied - who may well be entirely composed of self-promoting egotists and BS merchants but, you've got to fill the role with someone.

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One of the big problems is that often the most able staff don't, to use a ghastly Apprentice fetish phrase, 'step-up' when management roles become available and you're left to choose between those who've applied - who may well be entirely composed of self-promoting egotists and BS merchants but, you've got to fill the role with someone.

And of course you give preference to those of your ilk which exacerbates the problem,

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One of the big problems is that often the most able staff don't, to use a ghastly Apprentice fetish phrase, 'step-up' when management roles become available and you're left to choose between those who've applied - who may well be entirely composed of self-promoting egotists and BS merchants but, you've got to fill the role with someone.

... A "someone" who, oddly enough, has chosen to risk the opprobrium of being outed as An Enemy Of The People for reasons entirely unrelated to the glaring lack of extra money you're proffering?

A person categorised, in my crappy blue-collar world, as ... a fuccking idiot?

Priceless! You can't pay them too much :lol:

Any outfit hiding behind an HR dept. is best avoided, no matter how fantastic they appear just now. Those morons'll take it down faster than an IED, and you don't want to end up as collateral.

HR Rule #1 : never hire anyone more qualified or seemingly intelligent than oneself. As if we could tell. Which sets the bar kinda ... low.

HR? That'll be an acronym for YourCompanyWillCrashAndBurn, n'est-ce pas?

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One of the big problems is that often the most able staff don't, to use a ghastly Apprentice fetish phrase, 'step-up' when management roles become available and you're left to choose between those who've applied - who may well be entirely composed of self-promoting egotists and BS merchants but, you've got to fill the role with someone.

Exactly - This is the problem its always the self serving assholes - who spend most of the time doing as little as possible in their current job - and spend the rest of thee time looking for promotion to the next job, everything revolves around trying cultivate friendships with those in power.

Well you would have though if there was some decent who has not stepped up then someone in senior management - would at least get them to apply. Plus the other thing is manager talkingbehind their staff back - and if they don't like you then they will backstab.

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One of the big problems is that often the most able staff don't, to use a ghastly Apprentice fetish phrase, 'step-up' when management roles become available and you're left to choose between those who've applied - who may well be entirely composed of self-promoting egotists and BS merchants but, you've got to fill the role with someone.

Ever thought of just promoting someone on the shop floor?

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I applied for a management role last week, I am one of few people that have the skills and experience to take it on. However, as I have come from a small company I have not had a management role that 'sounds the same' and the staff may not respect me. For this reason I am on the hold list. No matter that I have run a company, I have not had a job at a corporate that 'sounds the same'. It's all in the job title. My skills got me on the hold list when they should have got me the job. The person who does get it will have held what they deem a similar position, even if less skilled and experienced as me. Shame. I am good at looking after people, and I know what I am doing.

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One of the big problems is that often the most able staff don't, to use a ghastly Apprentice fetish phrase, 'step-up' when management roles become available and you're left to choose between those who've applied - who may well be entirely composed of self-promoting egotists and BS merchants but, you've got to fill the role with someone.

No, it is better to have the post empty (and carry on the search) than to have the WRONG person fill it. Management 101 in 'my book'

And of course you give preference to those of your ilk which exacerbates the problem,

This is often the case, as 'successful' people often help 'colleagues' into management positions, since it serves well to have friends in high places.

HR Rule #1 : never hire anyone more qualified or seemingly intelligent than oneself. As if we could tell. Which sets the bar kinda ... low.

This is often more fate than design. Someone who appears intelligent to a 'thick' manager is probably even 'thicker'

I have collaborated with 7 organisations in my 30 year career. Never been employed by any one of them. Only ever experienced one with a good director and in that organisation the staff grumbled so much that they rarely saw him, that he was eventually ousted. My, how they moan now that they have the touchy-feely, insecure bully they got instead, and can see the difference. Why did they rarely see the past director at a personal level?...because he was doing his job making the organisation successful.

There are many successful companies and excellent Directors in the UK. But there is also much rot IMO that the plentiful economy of the last 15-20 years allowed to thrive. Darwinian selection pressures were reduced. I guess it will soon get sorted out.

Personal anecdote

I will never forget the day last September when the 06.20 finance slot on the R4 Today programme interviewed two people at the cutting edge of the 'credit crunch'. A London restaurateur and the manager of an office supply company.

Q. How is the credit crunch affecting you ?

Restaurateur: People are having 2 courses instead of three, the house wine rather than the Chateau-neuf, 2 covers an evening per table rather than 3

Office supply: Our order books have been empty for months. People don't renew their office furniture when money is tight.

I arrive at work at 08.30 at the same time as an 8 tonne lorry arrives delivering new desks for everyone. Public funded organisation, so no need to worry about the credit crunch, eh. In fact 'what credit crunch'.

As I said, Darwinian selection will out, hopefully.

BTW, I have been telling them for ages about the Tsunami arriving. But you will all know the response.

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In my last company, the MD will never hire a good manager as it will threaten him, as he is a tool. The company will slowly wither and die, a long slow death, that they won't even see as they can't admit it! La la land.

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In my last company, the MD will never hire a good manager as it will threaten him, as he is a tool. The company will slowly wither and die, a long slow death, that they won't even see as they can't admit it! La la land.

I have seen this scenario time and time again

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One of the big problems is that often the most able staff don't, to use a ghastly Apprentice fetish phrase, 'step-up' when management roles become available and you're left to choose between those who've applied - who may well be entirely composed of self-promoting egotists and BS merchants but, you've got to fill the role with someone.

If you've identified the most able staff you could invite them to apply. Talk to them, find out why they choose not to apply. If necessary find a way of changing the job so it is more attractive to them

And if the worst comes to the worst and all the candidates are poor do not appoint any of them. There's no rule that says you have to appoint somebody from amongst those who applied. Do without for a while, or better - ask the able staff member to 'fill in' while you readvertise.

No merit in making an appointment that harms the business just to comply with a process. That becomes a self-perpetuating culture dragging the business down. Change the culture, if you can. If its too late, get out, while you can.

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In my last company, the MD will never hire a good manager as it will threaten him, as he is a tool. The company will slowly wither and die, a long slow death, that they won't even see as they can't admit it! La la land.

Insane.

In my company the objective is to always hire people who are (or have the potential to become) better than you. That way your team is top notch and you get credit for hiring and managing them. Its more stimulating to work with able people. And if your people are good you are much less likely to wither and die.

Huge gulf between these two cultures.

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If you've identified the most able staff you could invite them to apply. Talk to them, find out why they choose not to apply. If necessary find a way of changing the job so it is more attractive to them

Often, upper management positions are surrounded by other more senior managers with undesirable traits whom many would not want to work alongside, life is too short.

However, this makes appointment to a Directors position very attractive if you have a board that supports route and branch change within the organisation's management, and the director has learned the company and knows what he is doing.

Often the organisation will reach breaking point for this to happen however, as the inertia against change is great; this can be an unpleasant period of waiting for ALL staff during which working relationships can break down.

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Insane.

In my company the objective is to always hire people who are (or have the potential to become) better than you. That way your team is top notch and you get credit for hiring and managing them. Its more stimulating to work with able people. And if your people are good you are much less likely to wither and die.

Huge gulf between these two cultures.

Precisely.

There is no threat from someone better than you, unless you turn it into a threat.

However, I guess the Director would not hire a better Director ? But it sounds as if you have a good one already.

It is all about creating the right environment where everyone's success is seen positively by all; there certainly should be no reason for jealousy as a colleague's success is everyone's success, preventing your wither and die scenario

You always want to work with people better than you, that is the way you learn.

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Guest X-QUORK

Management is a skill just as being a software writer is a skill. We don't just assume that anyone can write software, so why do we assume anyone can become a manager? I've never really understood that.

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Management is a skill just as being a software writer is a skill. We don't just assume that anyone can write software, so why do we assume anyone can become a manager? I've never really understood that.

But I would argue that you cannot learn management on a training course. A management training course can certainly show you mistakes made in management, but becoming a successful manager/director is either:

innate (as it requires an understanding of behaviour) or,

acquired through years of assimilation; in this way, like a successful software writer.

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I don't want to sound too condescending about a lot of posts but, they're gigantic dollops of armchair businessman conventional wisdom from management type books or newspaper articles.

It's fantasy that a business can run a level of redundancy in the workforce that it can afford for a position to remain unfilled, yet covered by exisitng staff, for a significant period while the 'right' candidate is sought. This might be tenable for a few of the top division head type roles but not for many of those lower down.

Public facing service businesses operating seven days a week just cannot operate with local management roles unfilled for any prolonged period and inevitably, the best of what's available in the short-term gets appointed.

The idea of coaching or mentoring able staff to take management roles is ok but, it's worth bearing in mind that a common staff grievance is that they're given more responsibility than they would wish for. There is a problem though with some staff being so good in roles that they actually find themselves missing promotion, through no fault of their own, that way.

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  • 238 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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