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PJ1977

Ulster Bank Take A £12M Bath On The North Coast

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The Fletchers are a fairly well known business family in and around Portrush with interests in catering and estate agency among other things.

Colin and Paul Fletcher ran CRF Developments which went under in March. The administrators report from BDO tells us the economic downturn did for the rent rolls on their portfolio which was comprised of 13 commercial units, mainly on the Portstewart prom, and a bunch of residential lets in Portrush and Portstewart.

Two things are striking - the speed at which things totally turned around (a near £600k profit for 2006, a loss of over £1m for 2008).

Secondly, the size of the write down on the portfolio. The book value was about £14m but its estimated realisation value (according to the directors statement of affairs filed in May) is just £5m. In all their were more than £17m of bank debts to Ulster, leaving it more than £12m short.

CF Homes, another Fletcher company which is also in administration, is listed as one of the unsecured creditors to the tune of £300k.

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I feel a little uncomfortable reading your posts PJ. The depth of information you have about these individuals' business dealings suggests that you are in a position of trust and perhaps abusing it.

Of course you will say it is all public knowledge but joining the dots the way you do and the insight you have into these dealings goes beyond the dry documents available to the public and into the realm of gossip and nosiness.

Just in my opinion of course.

Edited by Smell the Fear

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I feel a little uncomfortable reading your posts PJ. The depth of information you have about these individuals' business dealings suggests that you are in a position of trust and perhaps abusing it.

Of course you will say it is all public knowledge but joining the dots the way you do and the insight you have into these dealings goes beyond the dry documents available to the public and into the realm of gossip and nosiness.

Just in my opinion of course.

You've bubbled me. I am in fact Henry Elvin.

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You've bubbled me. I am in fact Henry Elvin.

More likely you are a junior to middle manager in an accounting firm, or maybe a solicitor. If someone was to look at who provides accounting and legal services for the individuals you mention perhaps a trail might lead to your door.......

edit: or you could well work in the credit department of a local bank.

Edited by Smell the Fear

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More likely you are a junior to middle manager in an accounting firm, or maybe a solicitor. If someone was to look at who provides accounting and legal services for the individuals you mention perhaps a trail might lead to your door.......

edit: or you could well work in the credit department of a local bank.

Wise up. I simpy know what the Belfast Gazette is, how to use the Companies House website and have GCSE Business Studies-level knowledge of how to read a balance sheet.

The basic fact of the matter is that limited liability and insolvency law both provide a certain amount of transparency, for good reasons. If you've got a problem with that then write a couple of letters to Vince Cable and Arlene Foster rather than gurning to me.

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Wise up. I simpy know what the Belfast Gazette is, how to use the Companies House website and have GCSE Business Studies-level knowledge of how to read a balance sheet.

The basic fact of the matter is that limited liability and insolvency law both provide a certain amount of transparency, for good reasons. If you've got a problem with that then write a couple of letters to Vince Cable and Arlene Foster rather than gurning to me.

Well said. There's a very good reason why this information is publicly available, that it is in the Public Interest that it be known.

I suggest you spare a thought for the Creditors of the company who have been left short changed.

Too often directors benefit from the fact that nobody actually looks into this published information - they are left to their own devices, leaving a trail of carnage in their wake and it is the public who suffer. Like the man says, Wise Up.

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I feel a little uncomfortable reading your posts PJ. The depth of information you have about these individuals' business dealings suggests that you are in a position of trust and perhaps abusing it.

Of course you will say it is all public knowledge but joining the dots the way you do and the insight you have into these dealings goes beyond the dry documents available to the public and into the realm of gossip and nosiness.

Just in my opinion of course.

:rolleyes: Belfast Girl told me about the Fletchers months ago and she has no links with finance or property. She is not even interested in this stuff.

Keep up the good work PJ.

MOD EDIT wording altered slightly.

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I agree BB. Its the lack of transparency in the land registry in Northern Ireland that led to people blindly bidding higher and higher for houses. The more transparency the better.

Anecdotally I know of a house which was sold for 200k in Nov 2006 being sold again 4 months later for 300K. That house unfortunately was not able to be flipped again since the market dropped and is now in a lot of negative equity. Does anyone think that the buyer at 300K would have been so happy to hand over the money if he had known the profit the seller was making?

Agreed doccy , as the number of trolls who have attacked this forum over the years shows knowledge is power and the VI's don't like it .

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I don't think 'Smell the fear' could be described as a VI. And whilst I enjoy PJ's insight and information I would also stress that we all should remain careful about what we post. PJ has remained within the safety of 'publicly available information'. However his ability to join the dots would suggest that he is a little more than somebody just doing a little research in his bedroom.

Thats great and PJ is obviously careful about what he posts and appears to know where to draw the line. I know almost all of the players he mentioned except the Flechers and can say that most of what he posts is on the money.

This forum got in difficulty before. I don't think PJ will slip up but the rest need to be careful that we don't try to follow and go in with info that is perhaps not as well researched as PJ.

If some of us make a mistake and mention the wrong name, then that name can be destroyed. Always best to wait until you see it in the press.

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I don't think 'Smell the fear' could be described as a VI. And whilst I enjoy PJ's insight and information I would also stress that we all should remain careful about what we post. PJ has remained within the safety of 'publicly available information'. However his ability to join the dots would suggest that he is a little more than somebody just doing a little research in his bedroom.

Thats great and PJ is obviously careful about what he posts and appears to know where to draw the line. I know almost all of the players he mentioned except the Flechers and can say that most of what he posts is on the money.

This forum got in difficulty before. I don't think PJ will slip up but the rest need to be careful that we don't try to follow and go in with info that is perhaps not as well researched as PJ.

If some of us make a mistake and mention the wrong name, then that name can be destroyed. Always best to wait until you see it in the press.

Seriously, I am no more than someone doing a liitle research - given that the property bust is the dominant financial story of my life time I wanted to know a little more about what actually went on.

I have to confess I was very surprised the first time I read both an administrators report and a CVA proposal. They are very far from the "dry documents" mentioned above - they are unflinchingly detailed and easily understood by the lay person.

There is no need for anyone to post tittle-tattle when there is so much accurate public information around; speaking of which Big Picture and PBN have both filed their annual accounts and they should be available in the next couple of days.

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:rolleyes: Belfast Girl told me about the Fletchers months ago and she has no links with finance or property. She is not even interested in this stuff.

Keep up the good work PJ.

Just need to be careful with the word "bankrupt" as it implies personal insolvency; I have no evidence that the Fletchers are in that state.

It is entirely likely that a company can go under while the people behind it retain their solvency - that's the whole point of limited liability.

MOD EDIT : Wording of quote altered.

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I agree BB. Its the lack of transparency in the land registry in Northern Ireland that led to people blindly bidding higher and higher for houses. The more transparency the better.

Frankly that is total nonsense. The vast majority of people would have no idea the info was there and would have been too involved in their day dreaming to have bothered looking it up. Transparency may well have helped support what this forum was saying... but there was more than enough evidence to demonstrate the validity of our arguements. This would have changed nothing.

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PJ enjoying your posts very very much . keep up the good work. i see no problems what so ever with reporting and disecting the publically available facts .

thats what freedom of information is about , and indeed there is not enough of it in norn iron. ive been on here since 06 and we have been fighting for more information.

i thank you for taking the time to do this , your posts could end up being invaluable.

i understand the fears of some but doccyboy will keep a good eye on what gets posted!

keep it up PJ and welcome to the forum

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Well thanks for posting the information PJ. I agree that pubic information should be freely available. The problem we had in the past was someone posted rumours about a certain EA and they became very concerned about their reputation. The posts were removed and it died down. I read every post on the NI forum and try to make sure that gossip is not confused with facts.

What would be really sad is if people are so edgy they self censor themselves when the information is already publicly available, also waiting on the press to make a comment on specific individuals and companies might mean waiting forever.

A web based mashup using the information in the public domain from a few sources would be great for keeping track of the players and their mishaps/dealings.

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Just need to be careful with the word "bankrupt" as it implies personal insolvency; I have no evidence that the Fletchers are in that state.

It is entirely likely that a company can go under while the people behind it retain their solvency - that's the whole point of limited liability.

Indeed, and busness could not exist without it. Personal Guarantees are the only way around it.

PS How is Henry these days?

Edited by BelfastVI

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What would be really sad is if people are so edgy they self censor themselves when the information is already publicly available, also waiting on the press to make a comment on specific individuals and companies might mean waiting forever.

A web based mashup using the information in the public domain from a few sources would be great for keeping track of the players and their mishaps/dealings.

Agreed...the local business press don't seem that interested in actually doing this sort of stuff eg. apart from one brief mention on the BBC I haven't seen one word about Anglo Irish making a move on Jermon (one of the leading commercial developers) in respect of three of their buildings.

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Agreed...the local business press don't seem that interested in actually doing this sort of stuff eg. apart from one brief mention on the BBC I haven't seen one word about Anglo Irish making a move on Jermon (one of the leading commercial developers) in respect of three of their buildings.

In fairness Peter kept a low profile. The Press were more interested in Taggarts etc, who, I am told courted the limelight somewhat. Unless they are public names, the press is unlikely to run with it.

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Agreed...the local business press don't seem that interested in actually doing this sort of stuff eg. apart from one brief mention on the BBC I haven't seen one word about Anglo Irish making a move on Jermon (one of the leading commercial developers) in respect of three of their buildings.

Unfortunately it would appear (to me) that the local press rely on getting their info via a simple press release - that means that stories don't get investigated fully and we have to suffer a press release cut and paste job with no journalistic investigation of the facts presented for the next days edition. Maybe more business journos need to be looking at the publicly available Chancery Court lists and The Belfast Gazette - They might learn a bit in doing so.

And of course when newspapers are funded by ancilliary advertising revenue streams reliant on the property sector it is unlikely that negative news stories (in the editor's eyes) will ever see the light of day and get published.

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In fairness Peter kept a low profile. The Press were more interested in Taggarts etc, who, I am told courted the limelight somewhat. Unless they are public names, the press is unlikely to run with it.

Peter always struck me as an interesting character as he didn't have the usual contractor or surveyor background and also for his willingness to strike out into central Europe. It's a pity that his plans to tear down Fanum House and improve that whole area of Gt Victoria St/Dublin Rd are now unlikely to come to fruition.

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Peter always struck me as an interesting character as he didn't have the usual contractor or surveyor background and also for his willingness to strike out into central Europe. It's a pity that his plans to tear down Fanum House and improve that whole area of Gt Victoria St/Dublin Rd are now unlikely to come to fruition.

Only some of his companies went under. He may live to tell the tail.

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Only some of his companies went under. He may live to tell the tail.

yes but according to property week Fanum was one of the properties placed into receivership. I agree he is by no means done - certainly it's obvious that some of his schemes continue to trade well and there is a good new tenant (Blacks outdoor supplies) in one of the Castle Place units.

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A dysfunctional place like Northern Ireland needs much more transparency on financial, planning and property related issues. The press in South, particularly the Independent, are now taking a great interest in all this type of 'publicly available information' and I reckon this will lead to some fundamental institutional/legislative change, including to the overall planning system (legislation already going forward) but also to bring about more property market transparency. Even the Construction Industry Federation is now calling for a house price register! What about the North? SFA.

Well done with the posts PJ. Although I've known what and where from this kind of information could be gleaned I've never really been bothered to do much digging. Were a journalist to start doing this sort of investigative work it would provide a great public service. Inevitably with this sort of process (which I have done with planning apps.), joining all the jigsaw pieces together might lead to some interesting places...

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The Fletchers are a fairly well known business family in and around Portrush with interests in catering and estate agency among other things.

Colin and Paul Fletcher ran CRF Developments which went under in March. The administrators report from BDO tells us the economic downturn did for the rent rolls on their portfolio which was comprised of 13 commercial units, mainly on the Portstewart prom, and a bunch of residential lets in Portrush and Portstewart.

Two things are striking - the speed at which things totally turned around (a near £600k profit for 2006, a loss of over £1m for 2008).

Secondly, the size of the write down on the portfolio. The book value was about £14m but its estimated realisation value (according to the directors statement of affairs filed in May) is just £5m. In all their were more than £17m of bank debts to Ulster, leaving it more than £12m short.

CF Homes, another Fletcher company which is also in administration, is listed as one of the unsecured creditors to the tune of £300k.

I see this has now hit the news.

Collapse of Portrush property costs Ulster Bank £10m

It thought I'd post it in here in order to keep things filed properly. (My OCD is wild bad today :lol: )

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  • 144 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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