Women Who Choose Not To Be Mothers

[JustYield]

She likes teaching and passing on knowledge doesn't she?

There's a bit more to it than that.

[Guest Noodle]

Yup - it is getting rather annoying. I'm 28 and my opinion on the matter hasn't changed in the last 15 years. My sister is 30 and is still adamant that she doesn't want kids.

Get up the duff love, you're damn fine breeding stock!

[daniel stallion]

Yup - it is getting rather annoying. I'm 28 and my opinion on the matter hasn't changed in the last 15 years. My sister is 30 and is still adamant that she doesn't want kids.

How dare you believe you know your own mind. Just acquiesce and let others tell you what you think. Stubborn cow!

[Guest Skinty]

There's a bit more to it than that.

A small community still benefits from maiden aunts and uncles who aren't necessarily going to be the ones at the coal face. That's the parent's job, it's their children after all. But we all know that parents do need support. Whether it's to give them a break or to help out with jobs around the home/village/tribe. And children too need some other people they can speak to rather than just their parents. You see the same thing happen in education where students have personal tutors they can go to rather than lecturers for example. I can well imagine people who are more community focused than family focused being evolutionary advantageous in the right environment (not modern day UK though).

Speaking for myself I would really value living in a small community that I could contribute to. I'd love to be able to pass on my knowledge and experience and prepare the next generation for what they will face. I don't have an urge to have my own family though. I wouldn't want to contribute to some sham of a community in some built up city but I would feel very satisfied helping to build and maintain a highland community for example.

[Guest Ian Chesterton]

Does anyone else find the idea of mmm....beer and Skinty getting it together deeply appealing?

[daniel stallion]

A small community still benefits from maiden aunts and uncles who aren't necessarily going to be the ones at the coal face. That's the parent's job, it's their children after all. But we all know that parents do need support. Whether it's to give them a break or to help out with jobs around the home/village/tribe. And children too need some other people they can speak to rather than just their parents. You see the same thing happen in education where students have personal tutors they can go to rather than lecturers for example. I can well imagine people who are more community focused than family focused being evolutionary advantageous in the right environment (not modern day UK though).

Speaking for myself I would really value living in a small community that I could contribute to. I'd love to be able to pass on my knowledge and experience and prepare the next generation for what they will face. I don't have an urge to have my own family though. I wouldn't want to contribute to some sham of a community in some built up city but I would feel very satisfied helping to build and maintain a highland community for example.

Would a whicker-man be involved? Just a little one?

[Guest Noodle]

Does anyone else find the idea of mmm....beer and Skinty getting it together deeply appealing?

No.

I find the idea of mmm...beer and Skinty having intelligent, healthy, well adjusted children appealing.

Isn't that right Ian . . .

[Guest X-QUORK]

Does anyone else find the idea of mmm....beer and Skinty getting it together deeply appealing?

Yes, I do, but at the same time, the idea of Scunnered and Noodle getting it together is appalling.

[Guest Ian Chesterton]

No.

I find the idea of mmm...beer and Skinty having intelligent, healthy, well adjusted children appealing.

Isn't that right Ian . . .

It scares the shit out of me.

[Guest Skinty]

Yup - it's actually far more normal for lineages to die out than it is for them to survive. Here's a tree tracing the lineages of 15 women in a population - it takes only 15 generations for all but one of them to die out.

Link to the image - it's not showing up in the post on my computer

And if you think about how much time and effort goes into raising a child. Humans have the longest maturation period of any animal don't they? So it makes sense that not all humans pop out as many babies as they can. Imagine a post-oil world where every woman in a village was some chav mum with 15 kids. The village wouldn't survive. Any small community needs people who aren't dedicated breeders. Ancient scandinavian and germanic tribes valued female warriors for example. Indian communitiess value eunuchs etc

[Guest Skinty]

Would a whicker-man be involved? Just a little one?

We'd probably go to B&Q and build one out of chipboard,

[Guest Ian Chesterton]

Would a whicker-man be involved? Just a little one?

[Guest Noodle]

And if you think about how much time and effort goes into raising a child. Humans have the longest maturation period of any animal don't they? So it makes sense that not all humans pop out as many babies as they can. Imagine a post-oil world where every woman in a village was some chav mum with 15 kids. The village wouldn't survive. Any small community needs people who aren't dedicated breeders. Ancient scandinavian and germanic tribes valued female warriors for example. Indian communitiess value eunuchs etc

How do you explain the history and fecundity of where I live? People had no oil, it was as you describe a 'post oil world' yet the birth rate was 6.5 children per woman, likely more.

Now they are rich, the birth rate has dropped to 1.64 children per woman and they are short of farm labour, partly replaced by diesel driven harvesters.

[daniel stallion]

Just a little one ....

[Guest Skinty]

How do you explain the history and fecundity of where I live? People had no oil, it was as you describe a 'post oil world' yet the birth rate was 6.5 children per woman, likely more.

But what is the distribution? As you say, likely more for most people, but then it might be 6.5 children because some people did not want children which brought down the average.

Now they are rich, the birth rate has dropped to 1.64 children per woman and they are short of farm labour, partly replaced by diesel driven harvesters.

So surviving is easier, there is less community spirit as the population grows and less value placed on those who are community-focused, less need to pop out loads of children as each one is more likely to survive and families becomes more fragmented and isolated.

[Woot]

My bloke on the other hand has this really annoying habit of coming out with the next line of a film seconds before it's spoken. He'll say something odd and I'll turn to him and go "Huh?" before then hearing it on the TV. He may also have only seen the film once several years ago when I can't even remember what happens. Some people are better at remembering things whereas others are better at making connections it seems.

Indeed - I fondly refer to my OH as 'Rainman': he has a bizarre memory for numbers and patterns.

Re Mmm...'s point, it really is no-one else's business what you choose to do, however there is a danger of more primeval responses kicking in at a later stage. OTOH that's absolutely not a good reason to have children! I really do think the BBC were just fishing for a story since childless women in my circle have not come across this sentiment to any serious degree other than from an older generation or the uneducated\liberated.

The one thing I find slightly sad is that your own choices are so informed by the experience of your mother and grandmother, since society is quite different these days and you can juggle successfully should you wish to. I'm also convinced that children can gain a great deal from the role-model that a successfully-juggling and independent mother provides. (Again that is no reason to have children!).

BTW - I'm with SnowFlux on the baby photos: my own kids are fine, but I absolutely do not get that 'cute' feeling for photos of other people's... I'm really taken-aback by some of the generalizations and stereotypes expressed on this thread - disappointing really to see some bright people unable to think in shades.

[Guest Noodle]

But what is the distribution? As you say, likely more for most people, but then it might be 6.5 children because some people did not want children which brought down the average.

Having children was very popular back then. 6.5 was the average. I know plenty up here with 5-7, not many with more than 7, it was probably a fairly even distribution. The only reason people didn't have them is because they couldn't.

So surviving is easier, there is less community spirit as the population grows and less value placed on those who are community-focused, less need to pop out loads of children as each one is more likely to survive and families becomes more fragmented and isolated.

But the population isn't growing. I stated the birth rate at 1.64 children per women, that's less than the 2.1 required to maintain the current population level. No change in community spirit. Same as it ever was, although there is less alcoholism and more interest in childrens education and future.

A lot of you people would benefit from experience of life outside the West. You might be a little less apocalyptic in your visions of the future.

[Mrs Bear]

I'm sorry but I'm not going to go through 3 months of constant nausea, 5 months of feeling horrible and bloated and having to go to the loo every 10 minutes, 12+ hours of searing agony, an episiotomy, 12 months of infected nipples and bugger all sleep, two years of changing nappies, a year of screaming tantrums, 14 years of parent teacher meetings, 6 years of being told that I'm the worst person who ever lived and a life time of financial responsibility just so 55 year old me has someone to complain doesn't visit her or call enough.

Who is asking you to go through any of that?

Nobody, by the sounds of it.

Not that all the horrors you list are inevitable, far from it.

But while many of us do find that the joys far outweigh the trials, I can understand anyone choosing to remain childless.

However, I can't help wondering whether you actually want people to go on at you, so you can be righteously indignant about it.

[Guest X-QUORK]

Given the amount of humans who feel the need to pop out dozens of copies of themselves, I applaud people like mmm...beer who are doing their bit to limit population growth.

[Guest Noodle]

It scares the shit out of me.

It shouldn't.

[Guest Noodle]

Given the amount of humans who feel the need to pop out dozens of copies of themselves, I applaud people like mmm...beer who are doing their bit to limit population growth.

Which brings me to another point. Adoption.

So many children no one wants, yet so many decent people remain childless . . . it's an easy equation this.

[daniel stallion]

Which brings me to another point. Adoption.

So many children no one wants, yet so many decent people remain childless . . . it's an easy equation this.

I'm all for adoption and would consider it myself.

However, I have friends who just came to the end of the process. All-up it took nearly three years. If you want to adopt from overseas, from what I understand, it can take 2-3 years and 30 grand. In both instances the cold truth is that somebody is making money (and lots of it) out of the plight of children.

[Guest Noodle]

I'm all for adoption and would consider it myself.

However, I have friends who just came to the end of the process. All-up it took nearly three years. If you want to adopt from overseas, from what I understand, it can take 2-3 years and 30 grand. In both instances the cold truth is that somebody is making money (and lots of it) out of the plight of children.

It is a disgusting state of affairs.

Anyway, just to point out what childless couples are missing . . . a trip to the zoo to see the hippos that look like Grandma . . .

[Guest Ian Chesterton]

It shouldn't.

I'll stick with dogs - SQUIRREL!

[porca misèria]

How do you explain the history and fecundity of where I live? People had no oil, it was as you describe a 'post oil world' yet the birth rate was 6.5 children per woman, likely more.

Works just fine when nature takes its course, and only a few of those 6.5 survive to breeding age.