Never Mind 1 In Japan,thousands Of Dead Uk Pensioners Are Receiving Payouts

[Caribbean Beauty]

Dear All

I added this post below to the "baby bomer fraud" thread and enjoyed writing it so much (sad) that I thought I would share it as a new thread.

After I wrote it I recalled the recent case of the 2 scouser women who tried to smuggle their dead pensioner Dad onto a flight to Germany and were arrested and charged (he was born in Germany). Their defence was, allegedly, that it would have been cheaper to fly his body there as a passenger than in the hold, for burial - but I would wager that they simply wanted to bury him secretly there/register hi death there and keep claiming his UK pension - which are now paid into bank accounts, for which they almost certainly would have the ATM card and pin number.....so before you start planning to export your dead grandad so you can keep keeping his pension, read my post about the massive hidden problem with Dead Johnny Commonwealth Immigrant Foreigner Pensioners and weep. We really are a soft touch and it is only going to get worse:

Post-mortem pension fraud by greedy relations is already costing the UK millions each year. When I worked in UKBA we used to have officers based mainly in the indian sub-continent who would spend some of their weekly work issuing visas and the other part driving up into remote hill villages etc to check on the recipients of UK pensions (some years back it became possible for pension cash to be collected at commonwealth post offices, to cater for the growing band of UK immigrants from the 1950s on who were returning to their countries of birth to live a high life on the UK pension).

In many cases it was found that the pension recipient was dead - usually the family would be as evasive as the in the Japanese case, sometimes even borrowing another daft old git from the village to pretend to be the person. But generally these countries have proper death records, thanks to their British Empire style civil services, hence death certificates could be found by the officers and pensions stopped. Of course there is no chance of any prosecution against family members being successful - trouble is that now it is impossible for such officers to head up into the Pakistani hills and return alive, so the list of remarkably alive 100 years plus British pensioners residing in those hills will grow and grow and grow....at our expense.

This is the next problem for us - the massive waves of immigrants from the 50s, 60s and 70s are now returning home and will quite rightly claim their state pensions - in almost all cases we will never know when they are dead. Eventually such countries will get computerised central death records - but then the families will simply bribe the local doctor or hospital or funeral director to keep quiet and not notify the death or burial. We have not got a chance! Send in the drones perhaps to spy on funerals????

PS - IF THERE IS A DAILY MAIL JOURNALIST READING THIS, IT IS A STORY YOUR LARGELY INSANE READERS WILL ENJOY BEING HORRIFIED BY SO COME ON AND GET STUCK IN!

[Spoony]

PS - IF THERE IS A DAILY MAIL JOURNALIST READING THIS, IT IS A STORY YOUR LARGELY INSANE READERS WILL ENJOY BEING HORRIFIED BY SO COME ON AND GET STUCK IN![/b]

I like your post but I take great offence at being described as insane for reading the daily mail. Its a quality newspaper that points out all the failings of this barmy country.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Spoony

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

CB, a great post and you prove the point that layers of pointless management and politicians just make things more inefficient.

A great insight which I guess you gathered working closer to the front line and definitely worth investigating.

[Caribbean Beauty]

CB, a great post and you prove the point that layers of pointless management and politicians just make things more inefficient.

A great insight which I guess you gathered working closer to the front line and definitely worth investigating.

Thanks ML. This will come to public attention I am sure, and a new law will be passed no doubt along the lines that "all pensioners must submit to interview by an official of the DWP (if in UK) or the F&Co (if abroad) upon reaching the age of 110. Failure to attend interview will lead to suspension of pension payments forthwith. Reasonable travel expenses will be re-imbursed".

In this way a genuinely alive 110 year old in the Pakistani hills could be taxi'd to the BHC in Islamabad for his interview to prove he is alive - of course the possibility of an imposter posing is very high, since the resemblance to the last passport photo on file - possibily dating from the 80s or 90s, is likely to be slim if at all.

Then we could take the pragmatic view that it is cheaper to pay the pension to dead-or-alive pensioners overseas than it is to house them in state paid housing here, along with NHS treatments? In other words it could be a trade off, turning a blind eye in the hope that relations will take their oldies overseas to die at 0 medical/home expenses to the UK taxpayer but at lessor cost of a defrauded pension after they pop.

[Redcellar]

It's totally wrong of course - but if only the papers would create as much fuss about the bail-out crooks in the banking system.

In money terms the bail-out crooks must truly dwarf the money lost through old age pension scams.

I'm glad you said it's clearly wrong.

We've got a culture in the UK now that some fraud and crime is OK. "False insurance claims as I pay my insurance after all, a little tax dodging is OK isn't it, some little benefits fraud or misclaiming benefits, well its only a little."

Morals and values of this country are slipping every day. It's become a fraud nation and we stand around and wonder why crime is on the increase and we tut tut at the youth culture hanging around street corners.

If the government gets its way and we become the Police in our neighbourhoods, how many people do you think will arrest themselves for all those 'small' crimes the committed?

[Caribbean Beauty]

It's totally wrong of course - but if only the papers would create as much fuss about the bail-out crooks in the banking system.

In money terms the bail-out crooks must truly dwarf the money lost through old age pension scams.

Yes, but it is still a sizeable sum, over a billion per annum lost in fraud. Let's work with these guesstimates:

imagine 500,000 commonwealth immigrants came to the Uk 1948-1971 (when the tap was slowed to a trickle, arguaby 67).

imagine one third of them return "home" to retire (I suspect it is higher - how often do you run into an ancient asian using a zimmer or being wheeled around town? Care is cheaper at home and the pension goes ten times further).

so we have 167,000 claiming 150 quid a week (no idea what the state pension is?) = 25 million pounds per week paid out = 1.3 billion per annum.

if hardly any of the deaths are ever notified by diligent releations back to UK DWP, the pensions will run and run and run.

Next phase will be the return of those who came in the 80s, 90s and noughties as "refugees" from Iran, the iron curtain (as was) and the new generation of asylum seekers from Somalia, Nigeria, Iraq, Afghanistan and so on, who managed to get residence using legal aid and good stories.

Then there are the current eastern europeans here - many of whom have already departed, still claiming their working/child tax credits and child benefits unlawfully (any benefit or pension which is payable into a bank account and not face to face is liable to this easy fraud of hit and run).

All of them will die, mostly have returned to see out their days at "home". While one would wish that relations would contact DWP after their deaths to get their money turned off, realistically this will rarely ever happen and we will be subbing little villages and whole families long after the pensioner dies. "From cradle to beyond the grave, if you retire overseas" is the new mantra of the welfare state.

[Democorruptcy]

so we have 167,000 claiming 150 quid a week (no idea what the state pension is?) = 25 million pounds per week paid out = 1.3 billion per annum.

I think it is £97 a week.

[kengan]

I think it is £97 a week.

Oh he knows how much it is.........

[Caribbean Beauty]

I think it is £97 a week.

Thank you. Rising to 150+ I believe for those who paid their max NI contributions.

And these are only the figures today - imagine, your pension is index linked and continues to rise, long after you die, keeping your children in luxury in the third world....what's not to like? One can even imagine scenarios where the dying pensioner states in his or her will who will "inherit" the pension after they die.

[billybong]

I'm glad you said it's clearly wrong.

We've got a culture in the UK now that some fraud and crime is OK. "False insurance claims as I pay my insurance after all, a little tax dodging is OK isn't it, some little benefits fraud or misclaiming benefits, well its only a little."

I agree but the example has been set at the top these days. That is bankers fraud and politicians fraud and so on and any excuse for the extremely well to do to get another bail-out.

It's no good the papers banging on about rule breaking of the petty pension scams etc etc (I know in total it all amounts to a lot of money even if dwarved by the bankers and politicians etc scams) when they're all participating in huge scams of their own and just trying to find scapegoats to direct feelings at and the papers role in all this has to be questioned apart from just selling paper.

And what's the betting that next month and in a couple of years time and then a couple of years after that and ad infinitum they will be rolling out the same story or at least very similar. Odds on for certain I would say.

And the other point of course is even when politicians state in their signed manifestos that they're going to act on things like the pension fraud and benefit fraud once in power it's always been a race in recent years and decades to see how quickly they can renege on their promises.

Apparently there's a signed coalition agreement (has anybody even seen it to see what they have committed people to - that is one document they should have posted to everybody rather than all the other spam rubbish they are so keen on pushing through people's letter boxes) but even then the participants to that signed agreement can't wait to renege on that.

Edited July 31, 2010 by billybong

[Caribbean Beauty]

. . . and thank God! The miserable bitch.

Seriously. You've pissed me off. I remember what it was like now having to deal remorselessly with the terminally humourless in Blighty. Nasty fvckers, serious psychological issues projected onto others.

Sort it! :angry:

Don't get worked up by him Noodle, he thinks Charisma is the 25th december.

Getting back to topic, are you now going to use your post-death pension rights as a bargaining chip to get a more devoted kind of "special friend" in Thailand? You will be able to get the payments paid into your bank account, give them a cashcard and your PIN (when you are on your deathbed) and they are good to go for decades, at our expense!

[huw]

Are the pensions in question index-linked?

If not, then I expect the problem will solve itself in due course

If so, they need to be de-linked

Apparently:

Inflation-proofing only applies to UK pensioners who live in the European Economic Area or in 15 other countries, but not in some Commonwealth states.

...which are the 15 other countries, I wonder.

[Guest Noodle]

Look this is dead easy to fix and it needs fixing because it's expensive and frankly embarrassing.

Once every year the pensioner receiving the pension checks in with the British Consulate in that country.

[Bloo Loo]

Mate I can crack with the best of you don't you worry. The guy made a snide reference which was totally incorrect. The family mentioned in his original post were German people living in Oldham, Manchester who travelled to Liverpool. The 'scouse jokes' that follwed were just trying to hide his bluff.

Angry? get yourself another Chang and roll up some ya sen.

He said he recalled a story, and recalled it incorrectly.

his mistake was not mentioning the price of the houses they lived in.

Shame on him.

[xux42]

It's totally wrong of course

- but if only the papers would create as much fuss about the bail-out crooks in the banking system.

In money terms the bail-out crooks must truly dwarf the money lost through old age pension scams.

That's not to mention the energy companies ripping off people and not dropping energy prices in line with wholesale prices.

etc etc.

It's seems very easy for the papers to distract from the real issues causing general impoverishment.

Yes.

Fraud is wrong. However, a lone pensioner abroad somewhere is probably just ticking over on 2 pensions. OK but nothing flash.

Take 1 away and they are liable to drag their saggy ass back to blighty and start claiming other benefits and burning through NHS money before finishing their days in a state care home.

Beware unintended consequences.

The right answer would have been for everyone to put everyone's pension 1st before even thinking about fancy houses, cars, holidays etc. But thats never going to happen unfortunately because most people are motivated by their greedy, selfish genes.

[Caribbean Beauty]

Yes.

Fraud is wrong. However, a lone pensioner abroad somewhere is probably just ticking over on 2 pensions. OK but nothing flash.

Take 1 away and they are liable to drag their saggy ass back to blighty and start claiming other benefits and burning through NHS money before finishing their days in a state care home.

Beware unintended consequences.

The right answer would have been for everyone to put everyone's pension 1st before even thinking about fancy houses, cars, holidays etc. But thats never going to happen unfortunately because most people are motivated by their greedy, selfish genes.

True, if the pensioners have retired to France or Spain. But I am talking about rural asia, where 100 or so squid per week is equivalent to 1000 in cost of living terms - where you can feed a family of 4 quite well for a tenner per month. Where there is no rent to pay because the old duffer is stuffed into one of the familie's homes (they care for their elderly at home in these places). And while some living families will indeed send their old'uns back for free NHS treatment if they get sick, there must be some who just let them die at home quietly, knowing that the pension will be all theirs to tap after they have gone, often for many years

[Caribbean Beauty]

Believe me CB, it's no where near that cheap. More like £50 a week for a family of 37 6 minimum if you eat meat.

I was not talking about the developing world like Thailand - have you been up to the Mountain Goat herding villages in Kashmir lately, where there is no power, no roads, schools or hospitals? Home grown food bought from other villagers is cheaper there (and no I have not been there either!). Prosperity and development brings price rises - but the real third world still exists

[Guest Noodle]

I was not talking about the developing world like Thailand - have you been up to the Mountain Goat herding villages in Kashmir lately, where there is no power, no roads, schools or hospitals? Home grown food bought from other villagers is cheaper there (and no I have not been there either!). Prosperity and development brings price rises - but the real third world still exists

Yes but most UK pensioners in this region live in South Pattaya. Ugly as that is, but they still have a Tesco Lotus on Sukhumvit.

How would a person collect a pension in a mountainous undeveloped region like Kashmir when the ATM is made of rock and powered by an aging donkey?

[Caribbean Beauty]

Yes but most UK pensioners in this region live in South Pattaya. Ugly as that is, but they still have a Tesco Lotus on Sukhumvit.

How would a person collect a pension in a mountainous undeveloped region like Kashmir when the ATM is made of rock and powered by an aging donkey?

LOL, you are in a mishievous mood today (if indeed it is daytime in your world). I guess most retiring third worlders will setup/or continue to receive payments directly into their bank accounts, then once a week they will mount the village donkey. When they have finished they will dismount and pop into the nearest town bank with an ATM. Or they can collect it at the nearest town PO as many still do - eg gurkhas who have retired to remote nepalese villages walk down the mountain to collect their army pensions from their PO.

[Guest Noodle]

LOL, you are in a mishievous mood today (if indeed it is daytime in your world). I guess most retiring third worlders will setup/or continue to receive payments directly into their bank accounts, then once a week they will mount the village donkey. When they have finished they will dismount and pop into the nearest town bank with an ATM. Or they can collect it at the nearest town PO as many still do - eg gurkhas who have retired to remote nepalese villages walk down the mountain to collect their army pensions from their PO.

This is a problem and I think it's not unreasonable pensioners make contact with the British Consulate annually to confirm they still have a pulse otherwise the pension stops.

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

I like your post but I take great offence at being described as insane for reading the daily mail. Its a quality newspaper that points out all the failings of this barmy country.

Psychotics lack insight into their condition, so maybe you are?

[Redcellar]

This is a problem and I think it's not unreasonable pensioners make contact with the British Consulate annually to confirm they still have a pulse otherwise the pension stops.

Some of these countries only have one consulate and the countries are vast. So a phone call from Mr Patel to say "Hello I am alive, please continue to send Mr Patels pension, ahem I mean my pension", will suffice?

By the way I liked the monologue to mounting a donkey. Very funny.

[council dweller]

Maybe when all's said and done this is the best form of foreign aid?

[Caribbean Beauty]

Some of these countries only have one consulate and the countries are vast. So a phone call from Mr Patel to say "Hello I am alive, please continue to send Mr Patels pension, ahem I mean my pension", will suffice?

By the way I liked the monologue to mounting a donkey. Very funny.

Glad you got the subtle joke.

I can foresee a return to "signing on" or other methods of physical reporting for a host of benefits, pensions etc one day soon. The requirements to do this (eg for JSA) were dropped back in the boom days when there was so much cash floating around government that checks and balances were lifted and streamlined, along with direct bank credit payments being launched - all to save money and speed stuff up, but it is a fraudsters charter.

Somehow pensioners who move to countries where the DWP will not be notified if they die, will have to be periodically physically inspected for signs of life, and true identity. So if anyone fancies squeezing the gnarled old walnuts of an octoganarian bengali pensioner in Sylhet, to see if he screams/the correct name, please apply to the F&Co now.

[shininglight]

Dear All

I added this post below to the "baby bomer fraud" thread and enjoyed writing it so much (sad) that I thought I would share it as a new thread.

After I wrote it I recalled the recent case of the 2 scouser women who tried to smuggle their dead pensioner Dad onto a flight to Germany and were arrested and charged (he was born in Germany). Their defence was, allegedly, that it would have been cheaper to fly his body there as a passenger than in the hold, for burial - but I would wager that they simply wanted to bury him secretly there/register hi death there and keep claiming his UK pension - which are now paid into bank accounts, for which they almost certainly would have the ATM card and pin number.....so before you start planning to export your dead grandad so you can keep keeping his pension, read my post about the massive hidden problem with Dead Johnny Commonwealth Immigrant Foreigner Pensioners and weep. We really are a soft touch and it is only going to get worse:

Post-mortem pension fraud by greedy relations is already costing the UK millions each year. When I worked in UKBA we used to have officers based mainly in the indian sub-continent who would spend some of their weekly work issuing visas and the other part driving up into remote hill villages etc to check on the recipients of UK pensions (some years back it became possible for pension cash to be collected at commonwealth post offices, to cater for the growing band of UK immigrants from the 1950s on who were returning to their countries of birth to live a high life on the UK pension).

In many cases it was found that the pension recipient was dead - usually the family would be as evasive as the in the Japanese case, sometimes even borrowing another daft old git from the village to pretend to be the person. But generally these countries have proper death records, thanks to their British Empire style civil services, hence death certificates could be found by the officers and pensions stopped. Of course there is no chance of any prosecution against family members being successful - trouble is that now it is impossible for such officers to head up into the Pakistani hills and return alive, so the list of remarkably alive 100 years plus British pensioners residing in those hills will grow and grow and grow....at our expense.

This is the next problem for us - the massive waves of immigrants from the 50s, 60s and 70s are now returning home and will quite rightly claim their state pensions - in almost all cases we will never know when they are dead. Eventually such countries will get computerised central death records - but then the families will simply bribe the local doctor or hospital or funeral director to keep quiet and not notify the death or burial. We have not got a chance! Send in the drones perhaps to spy on funerals????

PS - IF THERE IS A DAILY MAIL JOURNALIST READING THIS, IT IS A STORY YOUR LARGELY INSANE READERS WILL ENJOY BEING HORRIFIED BY SO COME ON AND GET STUCK IN!

Caribbean Beauty could you PM me or email me at bencarter78@googlemail.com please? Thanks.