Put An Offer On A Place, And Feeling Messed About

[Frenchie73]

Hey dear forum readers

Your opinion would be very welcome to me, as I have this problem at the moment.

I've sold my property, and saw one that I liked about 1 month ago in SW London (in posh area). Loved it and put a first offer on it, which was rejected right away.

I checked the sold prices for this address and there's only one entry in the houseprices listing for it, at £152,200 in May 2008.

The property is a share of freehold, and the owners have had renovations done.

So I decided to put a new offer, based on the most recently available sold price for a place there, and said I'm in a position to buy right away.

I got no reply for a few days...time passed and today I chased it up to get some news from the estate agents.

At first he said that the owners were not willing to accept this offer, but that he was going to try to convince them this weekend to see if they'd change their mind.

So I asked if there's been interest, or other offers, he said that there's been quite a few viewings so they're hopeful that someone will.

Then he explained that the people wanted to get 215K because they had bought the share of freehold and made repairs...and that the 152K in 2008 was bought via a "trust thing" (I don't know what that's about!!) and they paid more for it than what is listed in the UK Land registry.

I said it sounds highly unlikely, otherwise the Land Registry would have several entries for the place. Wouldn't they?

Basically, I have the strong feeling that they're messing me about, and trying to make me cough up more money.

The thing is that I really cannot do any better, and if they don't accept this, that's the end of it.

What do you think?

[AteMoose]

basically what they are saying is when they bought it they paid 152k, BUT they slipped the remainder of the money into a bank account via the solicitor to avoid paying tax, or the money was given to them in some other way....

[fallingbuzzard]

If you can't offer more, then you can't offer more! Most EAs and sellers won't believe this to be true. I always make offers based on what I think a property is worth, even if I can overpay for it.

Hey dear forum readers

Your opinion would be very welcome to me, as I have this problem at the moment.

I've sold my property, and saw one that I liked about 1 month ago in SW London (in posh area). Loved it and put a first offer on it, which was rejected right away.

I checked the sold prices for this address and there's only one entry in the houseprices listing for it, at £152,200 in May 2008.

The property is a share of freehold, and the owners have had renovations done.

So I decided to put a new offer, based on the most recently available sold price for a place there, and said I'm in a position to buy right away.

I got no reply for a few days...time passed and today I chased it up to get some news from the estate agents.

At first he said that the owners were not willing to accept this offer, but that he was going to try to convince them this weekend to see if they'd change their mind.

So I asked if there's been interest, or other offers, he said that there's been quite a few viewings so they're hopeful that someone will.

Then he explained that the people wanted to get 215K because they had bought the share of freehold and made repairs...and that the 152K in 2008 was bought via a "trust thing" (I don't know what that's about!!) and they paid more for it than what is listed in the UK Land registry.

I said it sounds highly unlikely, otherwise the Land Registry would have several entries for the place. Wouldn't they?

Basically, I have the strong feeling that they're messing me about, and trying to make me cough up more money.

The thing is that I really cannot do any better, and if they don't accept this, that's the end of it.

What do you think?

[Frenchie73]

basically what they are saying is when they bought it they paid 152k, BUT they slipped the remainder of the money into a bank account via the solicitor to avoid paying tax, or the money was given to them in some other way....

but what about the land registry?

I mean, say if the place cost them 200K for example. how would it be listed at 152,200K on the land registry? (They said it cost them MORE than £152,200 and yet there's only one entry in the Land registry records for that property)

Is it possible?

Edited July 30, 2010 by Frenchie73

[Frenchie73]

If you can't offer more, then you can't offer more! Most EAs and sellers won't believe this to be true. I always make offers based on what I think a property is worth, even if I can overpay for it.

My feeling exactly.

I told them that I cannot do any better, and that I feel it's a fair offer (as another one in the same block sold recently for that amount, and prices haven't gone up by that much in the matter of 2 months).

If they say no for sure, then too bad. Their loss, not mine. There'll be others and playing the waiting game is actually to my benefit...so I'm not worried

[AteMoose]

but what about the land registry?

I mean, say if the place cost them 200K for example. how would it be listed at 152,200K on the land registry? (They said it cost them MORE than £152,200 and yet there's only one entry in the Land registry records for that property)

Is it possible?

ie. they paid 152k for the property, that went through the land registry... however in a separate transaction unrelated to the purchase of the property they paid 48k for the curtains. Its against the law, but possible...

However I agree with other posters, you have to pay hardball (see my signature)

Edited July 30, 2010 by AteMoose

[Frenchie73]

ie. they paid 152k for the property, that went through the land registry... however in a separate transaction unrelated to the purchase of the property they paid 48k for the curtains.  Its against the law, but possible...

However I agree with other posters, you have to pay hardball (see my signature)

Yes, that's what I'm thinking too.

Even if they paid 25K for the freehold (that's what the agency said) and 25K for works on the place, it still comes to 200K and my offer is superior to this.

Tough luck to them if they spent more on the curtains! Not my fault if they decided to raid the bank to renovate the place and are expecting mugs to believe that they can hike up the prices for that reason

[tim123]

I'm struggling to think of a "posh area" of SW London that you could buy a property for 150K.

Even the scummy areas cost that much.

If the LR price of this property is out of line with the rest of the market in that area then the chances are that the listed price wasn't the going rate at the time (for whatever reason)

tim

[Frenchie73]

I'm struggling to think of a "posh area" of SW London that you could buy a property for 150K.

Even the scummy areas cost that much.

If the LR price of this property is out of line with the rest of the market in that area then the chances are that the listed price wasn't the going rate at the time (for whatever reason)

tim

Prices in London are always high, it's shocking to see how much they cost. What I mean is that it's in an area that's not like Chelsea or Kensington, but in a sought after area of the SW. I'd like to move there not for that reason. It's going to be easier for me to commute from that area than where I am now. Anyhow...

I wonder if the listed sold price for the property on the land registry is split between the actual flat + the share of freehold. It'd explain the odd number as well (£152,200). But even if the freehold had cost them 25K like it was reported to me, and the lease is very long, even with all the work they've done to renovate the place, there's only so much it can add value to the place.

Surely it's their choice to have spent that much on doing up the place.

They're trying to make me believe that they paid 215K for it....

No way!

[Frenchie73]

Update...

Still waiting!

I've placed the offer last Monday, 26th July and I'm still waiting.

I called the agency last Friday, and the response was "they're unwilling to accept it, but if you give me time this weekend, I will try to persuade them to take it".

We're now Tuesday, and the agency hasn't been in touch.

What I suspect is going on here is that the agency/seller don't say no to me yet, to gain time trying to get someone else to place another - higher offer -

I feel strung along. It's not fair, is it?

[chrismar]

Update...

Still waiting!

I've placed the offer last Monday, 26th July and I'm still waiting.

I called the agency last Friday, and the response was "they're unwilling to accept it, but if you give me time this weekend, I will try to persuade them to take it".

We're now Tuesday, and the agency hasn't been in touch.

What I suspect is going on here is that the agency/seller don't say no to me yet, to gain time trying to get someone else to place another - higher offer -

I feel strung along. It's not fair, is it?

I made an offer on a place in June. the offer was turned down and I increased it a little, that too was turned down. The agent selling that property has said to me that the people selling wont accept my offer, and are willing to wait for an offer that is somewhere near the asking price. In fact there are 4 other similar properties on the same street, all asking around the same price - and all have now been on the market for over 4 months, and some since before Christmas 2009, and none of them have sold. Hence I felt that my offer - quite a bit lower than they are asking was a fair offer, and I calculated it out fairly.

I did in fact sell a property on this very street in November 2009. So I knew the floor area of my old property, and when I worked out the floor area of the one I offered against, I made my offer in conjunction with that calculation, and also allowed for the market having dropped (as the agent who sold mine in November - has since told me that I would not have got the offer I got back in November now - because prices have fallen, and they did tell me that my own would have sold for around £12K less in June 2010 than it did in Nov 2009) , I also had to make allowances for the fact, that the property i was looking at needed some work - ie a complete redecorate throughout and a few "modifications" that had been made for an elderly person needed removing and the walls etc making good.

So I have not rushed back with a counter higher offer - I am sitting and letting them and all the other properties in the area stew... I will wait and write to them again in September to see if sellers have changed their mind, as they may wish to sell this year to avoid paying higher VAT on their agents/solicitors fees in 2011....

[Frenchie73]

It's a story that's all too familiar chrismar.

I hear similar cases all the time: sellers waiting for a higher price that never comes. Months and sometimes years later, it's still sitting there unsold.

They're playing the waiting game for a better one to come along, but don't want to lose mine in sight until it happens.

What I've done today is that I set them a deadline after which my offer expires.

Let's hope it has the desired effect.

[chrismar]

It's a story that's all too familiar chrismar.

I hear similar cases all the time: sellers waiting for a higher price that never comes. Months and sometimes years later, it's still sitting there unsold.

They're playing the waiting game for a better one to come along, but don't want to lose mine in sight until it happens.

What I've done today is that I set them a deadline after which my offer expires.

Let's hope it has the desired effect.

I did exactly the same with my highest offer at end of June - put a deadline on it and it was not accepted. When the price was dropped by £4.5k mid July I went back to agent and asked if seller would like to reconsider my offer and was told they wanted to wait. My offer mid- July was £2k less than I had offered end June as when I made the offer in June I stated that as prices were falling this was the highest offer I would make and any subsequent negotiations would be at a max figure £2k lower

[Frenchie73]

That's very smart.

I hope it'll work out for you.

These people also tell me they want to wait, but the way things are going now, it's taking the downward trend rather than up.

You're right as well about doing this now, as you said before, by the beginning of next year, the VAT is going up. It'll have an effect on the market for sure.

Good luck

[pharm]

basically what they are saying is when they bought it they paid 152k, BUT they slipped the remainder of the money into a bank account via the solicitor to avoid paying tax, or the money was given to them in some other way....

It may have been shared ownership in the first place? If they had a 25% share (say) already, then the £152k transaction in the LR would represent them purchasing the remaining 75%. Tack on the cost of some renovations & you've got a £215k notional "value" at the time.

[Frenchie73]

No, it's not a shared ownership. 3 people of the same family bought it for £152,200 cash, according to the land registry.

They own a share of the freehold, so a shared ownership wouldn't have been possible. What I sense is that each member of the family must have put 50K towards the purchase. In which case, even at 200K they're making a nice profit for a place bought in 2008.

It doesn't make sense either to think that they each paid £152,200 for it, because 3 x is about £456,000 and that's more than twice the value of the place.

I think they're just lying to me to justify getting more money. They said they need to achieve 215K on the price to buy a property abroad.

I'll see what happens in the next few days.

[tim123]

No, it's not a shared ownership. 3 people of the same family bought it for £152,200 cash, according to the land registry.

They own a share of the freehold, so a shared ownership wouldn't have been possible. What I sense is that each member of the family must have put 50K towards the purchase. In which case, even at 200K they're making a nice profit for a place bought in 2008.

It doesn't make sense either to think that they each paid £152,200 for it, because 3 x is about £456,000 and that's more than twice the value of the place.

I think they're just lying to me to justify getting more money. They said they need to achieve 215K on the price to buy a property abroad.

I'll see what happens in the next few days.

ISTM that you are making the same mistake on the upside that vendors are making on the downside.

The house is worth what the house is worth. This will be based upon what the (presumably) very similar house next door, and next door to that etc is worth.

It isn't based upon what they paid for it, 1, 2, 10 or 20 years ago.

Whilst it is true that you can get a good idea what it is worth today from what they paid for it, there are several reasons why that might not have been the "correct" value at the time of purchase (or even that the listing with the LR is wrong), so you can't use it as gospel.

I repeat my previous comment. 150K for a 2 bed property in a reasonable area of SW London is suspiciously low and is almost certainly not the correct value. For instance, how long was left on the lease before they bought their "share of freehold"?

tim

[Frenchie73]

Fair comments, but the recents sales (over the last 3 or 4 months) went for about 15K less than what their asking price is at the moment, and prices haven't gone up by this much in such a short time. I've placed the offer at the figure at which the last one was sold, same size place in the same residence.

It says on the management company website that they all have a lease of 199 years on that part of the estate but it doesn't say from when it started, so you may be right. Maybe that would explain why they got it so cheap and had to buy the freehold to extend the lease....saying that, if you add what they paid for it, and the price of the lease, they're still setting the asking price at 15K more than what the last one sold 4 months ago. Prices this year have been pretty stable and are now starting to dive down as more properties are coming on the market.

They might have bought it as a repossession, or in a terrible condition, or as a probate, or from someone who needed to sell very quickly? There could be all sorts of reasons why they got it very cheap, even by 2008 standards. Your reaction of "it can't be what they paid for it" is exactly what their agents told me, but I'm very sceptical. The numbers just don't add up any other way, so that sold price has to be what they paid for it.

Basically, they're pocketing a very nice profit, and my offer is very decent: based on the last known sale figure, it's a cash offer and chain free.

There's now a massive surge of new properties coming on the market.

I've received 8 email alerts today! That's more than I got in the last couple of months.

It's a buyer's market at the moment.

There's one in the same residence that's been sitting there unsold for at least 4 or 5 months. It's got the same number of years on the lease as the one I've put an offer on and is in a good condition as well. It's on for 5K less and has been unsold for quite some time. I'll try to put an offer on that one if they turn me down on the other. I've put the offer on the other one first because it's empty, and it'd make my life easier.

The fact that they have not said an immediate "no" is probably significant (it's now the 2nd week since I made it). It's not a yes either, but if my offer was that bad, they'd have already turned it down. I'd like to hope it'll be accepted.

Fingers crossed

Edited August 5, 2010 by Frenchie73

[Frenchie73]

Update:

2 weeks have now passed, and still no news.

But I called them yesterday, and the agent was not in the office...I sent him a message to ask for news earlier this week, and I'm getting no reply. The rest of them don't seem to have a clue about the offer or anything.

Meanwhile, I've contacted another agency in the area, about one that's just come on the market. I asked them for advice about how much they reckon the flats in that residence are generally worth. The answer was: between 208K and 210K

My offer is within that price bracket (and it's a cash offer).

When I last spoke to the agent 2 weeks ago, he said that the owners would definately accept 215K (it's on the market for 219K). Now I'm thinking: of course they would, it's a minimmum of 5K more than the others are being sold for.

The more it goes on, and the more I'm thinking that they are simply waiting for someone else to put an offer, but that they don't want to say no to me just in case no one else does.

The fact that they haven't turned the offer down after 2 weeks is suspicious.

[tim123]

Fair comments, but the recents sales (over the last 3 or 4 months) went for about 15K less than what their asking price is at the moment, and prices haven't gone up by this much in such a short time. I've placed the offer at the figure at which the last one was sold, same size place in the same residence.

Given that you've indicated an asking price in the low 200s a 15K disount is, IMHO, well within the normal negotiating range.

OTOH 50K is not.

But if they wont negotiate down 15K then you have to walk away and wait, you can't make them accept it however pig headed they are.

tim

[Frenchie73]

Yes, the offer I've made is 13K less than the asking price.

The thing is that I don't know if it's the agency or the seller (or both) who are stubborn to keep their negotiating position at no less than 5K below the asking price.

I don't know if I can trust what the agent is telling me, because he kept saying how he was trying to convince the sellers, but in the meantime, I'm getting no negative answer. Nothing positive either...and they've now had 2 full weeks to think about it.

[Frenchie73]

Today, I've pressed the agency into action, to know what's going on.

Their reply was that they had someone who came for a 2nd visit recently, and asked a long list of questions, and they were waiting for the outcome of this before reviewing my offer.

They're obviously waiting for someone to outbid me...

[mrtickle]

Tell them your offer is only valid until Wednesday, at which time it drops by £2k each week

[chrismar]

Tell them your offer is only valid until Wednesday, at which time it drops by £2k each week

That mr tickle. Is the approach I have taken. It has not achieved any result yet for me. All I get told is that the sellers are prepared to wait ...... For someone who will offer them something a lot nearer the asking price than I have done.

I for info made my offer on 28 June since tfen sellers have

knocked price down 5k but still the flat remains empty. Sellers are a brother & sister who inherited. Property cost 160k back in 2002. They are trying

to ask 245k. And at height of 2007 an identical flat in same block went for 220k. Hence my cask offer is below that and has to reflect work needed to remove additions they have made for an oap

Edited August 9, 2010 by chrismar

[Frenchie73]

Tell them your offer is only valid until Wednesday, at which time it drops by £2k each week

That's exactly what I've done.

I've had no choice but to tell them today is the day, and if they don't give me any answer, I'm dropping back the price.

Yesterday I thought I was close to a deal but the agent contacted me this morning to say that the sellers had gone on holiday (again) and can't be contacted until next week....yeah right!!! It's another way to gain time, and in any case, I'm done.

A lot of people would have already told them to stick it after having waited this long.

Chrismar, at least they tell you it's rejected after you make the offer. It looks to me like they could be waiting a very long time!

Good luck to you!

I hope to have some news today, otherwise, that's it, I'm pulling out altogether. So fed up now