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Ids: Welfare System 'close To Breaking'

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8870000/8870230.stm

Surprised not to have seen a comment on this one.

I think he is really having a go at a negative income tax type of system.

The initial problem with this, is that it costs a lot to get it going. You need to taper the withdrawal of benefits, and this costs money because a lot of people now working are suddenly able to get benefits that they couldnt before.

But this may well save money. If more people move into work, then they will be able to claim less and pay more in tax. That is the aim.

He mentions Housing Benefit as being out of control. I am not clear exactly what he is proposing to do here, if anything. If you are going to put in the sort of system IDS is talking about, then Housing Benefit needs to die, and be incorporated into the overall scheme of benefits that you get. That way, it takes away the inflation of the benefit you get when prices in general or specifically house prices take off.

Anyway, I am not too negative on what I hear, but lets wait for the details.

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http://news.bbc.co.u...000/8870230.stm

Surprised not to have seen a comment on this one.

I think he is really having a go at a negative income tax type of system.

The initial problem with this, is that it costs a lot to get it going. You need to taper the withdrawal of benefits, and this costs money because a lot of people now working are suddenly able to get benefits that they couldnt before.

But this may well save money. If more people move into work, then they will be able to claim less and pay more in tax. That is the aim.

He mentions Housing Benefit as being out of control. I am not clear exactly what he is proposing to do here, if anything. If you are going to put in the sort of system IDS is talking about, then Housing Benefit needs to die, and be incorporated into the overall scheme of benefits that you get. That way, it takes away the inflation of the benefit you get when prices in general or specifically house prices take off.

Anyway, I am not too negative on what I hear, but lets wait for the details.

The original (hidden symbolic) statue at the HEART of Leicester Square was of;

King George I - A GERMAN!

Goes nicely with your increasingly shrill, fascistic (enjoyment of others suffering) posts!

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8870000/8870230.stm

Surprised not to have seen a comment on this one.

I think he is really having a go at a negative income tax type of system.

The initial problem with this, is that it costs a lot to get it going. You need to taper the withdrawal of benefits,

why?

the country is living on overdraft...simple as.It really is economics 101.

in personal expenditure,would you continue the daily order of takeaway pizza's from domino's because you feel some sympathy for the plight of the delivery boys that might get laid off if people reduced their intake en masse?

in so doing you will not reduce your defecit.

that doesn't necessarily mean cutting out dinner altogether,but it does mean adjusting how you obtain sustainance.

as mum used to coin it....."the egg+chips month"

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No-one can doubt that IDS and Frank Field are well intentioned and very motivated to help the poor and marginalised out of the poverty cycle.

The Welfare system has grown because of bolt-ons to solve chronic problems. Many of those problems have come from unintended consequences due to policies like selling Council Houses.

The question is whether the Treasury will back reform. Field found that it will not. Will Osbourn prefer to back benefit reform or Trident?

What will they choose in the Tory constituencies?

IDS will find his ideas are scrutinised, adopted wherever they save money but beyond that, put in the 'pending' tray.

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Guest Noodle

The original (hidden symbolic) statue at the HEART of Leicester Square was of;

King George I - A GERMAN!

Goes nicely with your increasingly shrill, fascistic (enjoyment of others suffering) posts!

:D You're so potty it's actually quite . . . sweet.

You once called me the 'Pol Pot of Thailand'.

All power to you mate you are entertaining and often make my day (not saying it in a bad way either).

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The original (hidden symbolic) statue at the HEART of Leicester Square was of;

King George I - A GERMAN!

Goes nicely with your increasingly shrill, fascistic (enjoyment of others suffering) posts!

I am not sure about any hidden symbolism.

I have nothing against the Germans either. I take it from your post, that you imply that all Germans are facists? Was Facism even an ideology when King George I was king? I certainly do not consider myself a facist. It is interesting to see how often those who would cease to profit from unjust schemes label anyone who dares to change anything 'a facist'.

IDS is trying to change a system that is out of control, one that threatens the fiscal stability of our nation, and could lead to anarchy. I support him in his efforts to make things better. Would you continue with this runaway benefits train?

As for enjoyment of other suffering, I can assure you that I do not enjoy the suffering of others at all. I merely propose solutions to problems where I see suffering, though I do admit to putting forward an agenda that puts the people of this nation first. I see a lot of people in this country, unable to buy the homes that they deserve, whilst at the same time, they pay taxes to house people that dont deserve them. That is plainly wrong, and needs to be put right.

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Guest Noodle

In a high cost economy the welfare state was always doomed.

However where are the jobs going to come from?

You'll have to bite the bullet on this one and get serious infrastructure projects going using as much internal resource as possible. Hydroelectric dams including the Severn Barrage (even just the smaller 1 GW one), nuclear power station construction, national grid renewal, Victorian sewerage system renewal where needed . . . even get agriculture roaring up again . . . anything to reduce dependency on imports for basic human needs in the future.

Or we can just sit there decaying moaning on about printed money and bankers bonuses.

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In a high cost economy the welfare state was always doomed.

However where are the jobs going to come from?

Interestrateripoff,

It is interesting just how many eastern Europeans have come here, and found jobs. Must be millions of them. It put paid to the lie that there were no jobs for our 3 million unemployed to do. Instead their arrival exposed that the benefits system was at fault for discouraging people from working.

As for where future jobs will come, who knows? Most people do jobs today that no one would have heard of 300 years ago. New types of jobs appear 'out of the ether' sometimes. The invention of a computer created jobs for millions, who knows what will happen next.

I am confident that there will be some work. I wish I was as confident that we could get UK people to do it.

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:D You're so potty it's actually quite . . . sweet.

You once called me the 'Pol Pot of Thailand'.

All power to you mate you are entertaining and often make my day (not saying it in a bad way either).

Noodle,

well said. My personal fav project would be to upgrade the whole of the nations main lines to superfast broadgauge. You could use low tech to make it labour intensive, and teach people many many different skills in carrying the project through. And we would have low cost mass transit between our major cities, meaning your rail ticket would be much cheaper than it is today. London to Birmingham in 20 minutes anyone?

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Noodle,

well said. My personal fav project would be to upgrade the whole of the nations main lines to superfast broadgauge. You could use low tech to make it labour intensive, and teach people many many different skills in carrying the project through. And we would have low cost mass transit between our major cities, meaning your rail ticket would be much cheaper than it is today. London to Birmingham in 20 minutes anyone?

I was going to post something intelligent with lots of historical facts about UK civil engineering projects of the previous centuries we still rely on to this day.

But I'll just say this instead.

GET THE FVCK ON WITH IT!

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Interestrateripoff,

It is interesting just how many eastern Europeans have come here, and found jobs. Must be millions of them. It put paid to the lie that there were no jobs for our 3 million unemployed to do. Instead their arrival exposed that the benefits system was at fault for discouraging people from working.

As for where future jobs will come, who knows? Most people do jobs today that no one would have heard of 300 years ago. New types of jobs appear 'out of the ether' sometimes. The invention of a computer created jobs for millions, who knows what will happen next.

I am confident that there will be some work. I wish I was as confident that we could get UK people to do it.

You'll also see those in the dole (including the 750k - 1.2m public sector workers who will be laid off) to do the work they used to do, for a quarter of the "wage"..

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In a high cost economy the welfare state was always doomed.

However where are the jobs going to come from?

they will arise like gleaming fluff from the belly-button of commerce

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They should make a quick start by scrapping a few of the means tested top-up benefits and raising into tax allowance to £15k.

This would actually make an immediate saving due to the savings in administration, and the public would be no worse off.

Same applies to road tax. An extra 2% on VAT will increase petrol costs and recoup the moeny. Scrap the whole thing and then run a simply computer query to print out refund cheques.

Same with TV license... just scrap it and fund it centrally, such a large portion of the license money goes on collection and enforcement that it's a waste of time.

In fact scrap all taxes/benefits that require any complex paperwork. Scrap capital gains and class it all as income tax. Dump corporate tax and in exchange stop companies claiming the VAT back.

In fact raise VAT to 20% and bin any separate gas, leccy and fuel taxes... just call it all vat, that's what it is anyway. Poor people have to pay for their Leccy/Gas/Fuel before they spend on food/clothes etc anyway, so the amount they pay in taxes and what hey get for there money wouldn't differ, it would just remove tonnes of paperwork.

To sum up:

Raise income tax threshold to £15k

Scrap Road Tax

Scrap TV License

Count Capital gains as income.

Raise VAT to 20%

Raise council tax by 50%

Remove council tax exemptions for empty, 2nd and holiday homes.

Increase council tax for unused land and car parks.

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Guest Noodle

 IDS should have been Prime Minsiter. If it wasn't for that Howard bloke.

The quiet man is now turning up the volume . . . didn't help.

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I am not sure about any hidden symbolism.

I have nothing against the Germans either. I take it from your post, that you imply that all Germans are facists? Was Facism even an ideology when King George I was king? I certainly do not consider myself a facist. It is interesting to see how often those who would cease to profit from unjust schemes label anyone who dares to change anything 'a facist'.

IDS is trying to change a system that is out of control, one that threatens the fiscal stability of our nation, and could lead to anarchy. I support him in his efforts to make things better. Would you continue with this runaway benefits train?

As for enjoyment of other suffering, I can assure you that I do not enjoy the suffering of others at all. I merely propose solutions to problems where I see suffering, though I do admit to putting forward an agenda that puts the people of this nation first. I see a lot of people in this country, unable to buy the homes that they deserve, whilst at the same time, they pay taxes to house people that dont deserve them. That is plainly wrong, and needs to be put right.

You can learn alot from the Germans their values are like ours but they've been through total political,economic shit and coisequently their people

hate obligation.

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Interestrateripoff,

It is interesting just how many eastern Europeans have come here, and found jobs. Must be millions of them. It put paid to the lie that there were no jobs for our 3 million unemployed to do. Instead their arrival exposed that the benefits system was at fault for discouraging people from working.

As for where future jobs will come, who knows? Most people do jobs today that no one would have heard of 300 years ago. New types of jobs appear 'out of the ether' sometimes. The invention of a computer created jobs for millions, who knows what will happen next.

I am confident that there will be some work. I wish I was as confident that we could get UK people to do it.

How many of those jobs created over the past decade and done by Eastern Europeans where funded by debt growth?

I think you may have misunderstood what I'm saying about the welfare state, it's ballooned out of control as the state tried to provide everything, that in itself creates the trap where the loss of benefits actually costs the individual making the decision not to work more appealing. As the welfare state grows in this way it's longevity shortens especially when you have a high cost economy in perpetual inflationary growth mode.

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Interestrateripoff,

It is interesting just how many eastern Europeans have come here, and found jobs. Must be millions of them. It put paid to the lie that there were no jobs for our 3 million unemployed to do. Instead their arrival exposed that the benefits system was at fault for discouraging people from working.

As for where future jobs will come, who knows? Most people do jobs today that no one would have heard of 300 years ago. New types of jobs appear 'out of the ether' sometimes. The invention of a computer created jobs for millions, who knows what will happen next.

I am confident that there will be some work. I wish I was as confident that we could get UK people to do it.

*Sigh* i get really really tired of posts that seem to say the unemployed are lazy. The fact is, everyone is, its why we all require a wage to work.

For the poles (as posted sooo many times here) its due to currency arbitrage. Average wage in poland in 2006 ~£350 per month. Minimum wage for a 40h week in the uk in 2006 ~£910 per month.

Tell a long term dolee that if he goes and works in poland he will earn the equivalent of 2.5+ times the average uk wage (~60k) and i'm sure he'd be glad to go for a few years.

If you want uk citizens to do these jobs in the uk, cut off the supply of cheap labour and allow wages to naturally rise to the point where the economic incentive is great enough to attract the workers needed. We apply this principle to our skilled labour markets, so why exactly do we need to treat our unskilled labour so differently?

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In a high cost economy the welfare state was always doomed.

However where are the jobs going to come from?

Bang on , this is the bit that they never say, on the news tonight they had this as the second headline and went to Newham and Tower Hamlets in London two of the most depressed area's in the county ( even though Canary Wharf is part of Tower Hamlet's and Newham just down the road ) , They spoke about moving off benefits and into jobs , but did not say where the jobs were , due to them not being there.

I could understand IDS and his aims if he was pointing out jobs that are going begging at the same time as talking about this , but he does not do that as there are no jobs going begging.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8870000/8870230.stm

Surprised not to have seen a comment on this one.

I think he is really having a go at a negative income tax type of system.

The initial problem with this, is that it costs a lot to get it going. You need to taper the withdrawal of benefits, and this costs money because a lot of people now working are suddenly able to get benefits that they couldnt before.

But this may well save money. If more people move into work, then they will be able to claim less and pay more in tax. That is the aim.

He mentions Housing Benefit as being out of control. I am not clear exactly what he is proposing to do here, if anything. If you are going to put in the sort of system IDS is talking about, then Housing Benefit needs to die, and be incorporated into the overall scheme of benefits that you get. That way, it takes away the inflation of the benefit you get when prices in general or specifically house prices take off.

Anyway, I am not too negative on what I hear, but lets wait for the details.

Huige white elephant system that will give the boys one last pay out before total collapse?

That'll do nicely. Thank you bald, well meaning moron.

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Interestrateripoff,

It is interesting just how many eastern Europeans have come here, and found jobs. Must be millions of them. It put paid to the lie that there were no jobs for our 3 million unemployed to do. Instead their arrival exposed that the benefits system was at fault for discouraging people from working.

As for where future jobs will come, who knows? Most people do jobs today that no one would have heard of 300 years ago. New types of jobs appear 'out of the ether' sometimes. The invention of a computer created jobs for millions, who knows what will happen next.

I am confident that there will be some work. I wish I was as confident that we could get UK people to do it.

Its interesting how many people used to be in work in the U.K. and are now unemployed, 4,000 in the factory that I worked in alone in the last few years.

The mith that U.K. people did not want to work is a lie and has been used to bring in millions of cheaper workers , now we have a massive unemployment problem on our hands caused by to much immigration , and the collapse of the credit bubble, the top brass and the bankers who caused the bubble and collapse now sit there and blame the people who have lost their jobs and find themselves unemployed ,

Its interesting how unfair that is isn't it !!!

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I am not sure about any hidden symbolism.

I have nothing against the Germans either. I take it from your post, that you imply that all Germans are facists? Was Facism even an ideology when King George I was king? I certainly do not consider myself a facist. It is interesting to see how often those who would cease to profit from unjust schemes label anyone who dares to change anything 'a facist'.

IDS is trying to change a system that is out of control, one that threatens the fiscal stability of our nation, and could lead to anarchy. I support him in his efforts to make things better. Would you continue with this runaway benefits train?

As for enjoyment of other suffering, I can assure you that I do not enjoy the suffering of others at all. I merely propose solutions to problems where I see suffering, though I do admit to putting forward an agenda that puts the people of this nation first. I see a lot of people in this country, unable to buy the homes that they deserve, whilst at the same time, they pay taxes to house people that dont deserve them. That is plainly wrong, and needs to be put right.

It's out of control because of Governments previous policies - A set-up!

There was always an underclass, then Millions of extra people in recent times have been thrown out of work, so it's hyped up in their media to cause population to fight amongst itself - whilst they let in millions of immigrants (pretending they can't stop them) - A set-up

Because our fascist landowners have hoarded land for building SHELTER + therefore house prices shot up (helped thru THEIR Wholly Owned banks) also caused by conjured up out-of-control money lending!

GOVTS deliberate Big Bang + Deregulation allowed it all to happen! Conspiring Govt + Elites caused the debts and lured people in UNREGULATED to protect consumers from their own stupidity!

Have you not realised how the knobs take the piss out of the UK population on TV - showing you films of millions of acres of empty fields/quaint viallages/countryside on progs like COAST/Hiking.biking all over the UK/Country File whilst feeding you drivel in their wholly owned propaganda media that we have no land left to build on?

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:D You're so potty it's actually quite . . . sweet.

You once called me the 'Pol Pot of Thailand'.

All power to you mate you are entertaining and often make my day (not saying it in a bad way either).

I was probably taking the 'P' - at the time!

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Guest Noodle

It's out of control because of Governments previous policies - A set-up!

There was always an underclass, then Millions of extra people in recent times have been thrown out of work, so it's hyped up in their media to cause population to fight amongst itself - whilst they let in millions of immigrants (pretending they can't stop them) - A set-up

Because our fascist landowners have hoarded land for building SHELTER + therefore house prices shot up (helped thru THEIR Wholly Owned banks) also caused by conjured up out-of-control money lending!

GOVTS deliberate Big Bang + Deregulation allowed it all to happen! Conspiring Govt + Elites caused the debts and lured people in UNREGULATED to protect consumers from their own stupidity!

Have you not realised how the knobs take the piss out of the UK population on TV - showing you films of millions of acres of empty fields/quaint viallages/countryside on progs like COAST/Hiking.biking all over the UK/Country File whilst feeding you drivel in their wholly owned propaganda media that we have no land left to build on?

Yes, good one. 'Just look our lovely country . . . subjects!'

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  • 150 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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