Question For Car Drivers, Bikers

[JustYield]

Nasty and stupid incident this morning driving to work. Luckily no one was hurt.

I'd like experienced driver's views on who was to blame:

1. I pull up to a give-way sign ready to turn left, 2 cars are ahead of me in the queue.

2. As I get to the front of the queue and wait for a gap to turn onto the main road a motorbike appears at the give-way junction and sits on my right: clearly intending to jump the queue.

3. Gap appears in traffic and I pull out as it is now my turn and presumably still my right of way. Motorcycle rider also pulls out and drives the Ducati straight into driver's door having up to then been looking right to check gap in traffic.

Who's really to blame?

[JustYield]

How did he manage to drive into the driver's door if you were turning left?

He was also turning left. Basically we were in the same space at the same time, but I got there first.

[Guest Noodle]

Nasty and stupid incident this morning driving to work. Luckily no one was hurt.

I'd like experienced driver's views on who was to blame:

1. I pull up to a give-way sign ready to turn left, 2 cars are ahead of me in the queue.

2. As I get to the front of the queue and wait for a gap to turn onto the main road a motorbike appears at the give-way junction and sits on my right: clearly intending to jump the queue.

3. Gap appears in traffic and I pull out as it is now my turn and presumably still my right of way. Motorcycle rider also pulls out and drives the Ducati straight into driver's door having up to then been looking right to check gap in traffic.

Who's really to blame?

His.

But draw a diagram and post it here, you need to do one for the insurance anyway.

[JustYield]

His.

But draw a diagram and post it here, you need to do one for the insurance anyway.

PC with scanner is turned off right now and diagram already submitted to insurance - very efficient here.

Here's an ascii diagram!

Queuing to turn left:

Main road <--------

=======

[] |

Then collision:

Main road <--------

[]--===

Key:

=== Give Way

[] my car

| bike queuing

-- bike stoving in door

[JustYield]

So he was on the right side of the lane and turning left aiming to be on the left side or middle of the lane? Sounds like his fault really. Was he indicating?

No need to indicate it was a left turn feeder lane onto a 3-lane one-way main road.

He wanted to get past me and assumed I didn't have Senna-like take off abilities.

[jackalope]

I'm still not really clear on the road layout. Can you find it for us on Google Maps?

Pretty certain it's the Ducati bloke's fault anyway as he rode into a space already occupied by your car - obviously wasn't looking.

[JustYield]

Did he admit liability at the time? What did the insurance company say? He could try and argue that you should have expected him to do it but that's a pretty weak argument in my opinion.

Yeah he apologised, admitted fault and said he was tired after his shift. I've put all this in my claim. But I fear he will change his story when his insurance company asks him. Then we'd have to go legal and its not worth pursuing then (the door damage is a few hundred dollars).

[General Melchett]

I agree, looks like his fault, but the insurance co might claim that technically you pulled out into the main road in front of him as he was travelling along the main road, even if, technically, he may have only been there a spilt second before you. They'll want to minimise their loss after all, which means maximising your loss.

Wouldnt be surprised if your insurance co and his try to divvy it up and call it quits. I understand this is what they like to do in ambiguous cases, as I guess it is even more cost to squabble about it.

[JustYield]

I agree, looks like his fault, but the insurance co might claim that technically you pulled out into the main road in front of him as he was travelling along the main road, even if, technically, he may have only been there a spilt second before you.

We didn't even get fully across the give-way lines before collision. I don't think he could claim to be on the main road at that point.

[Gone baby gone]

I'm a biker and I say that it's his fault. He filtered to jump the queue and was aware of the fact you were at a junction and about to pull out, he should have either let you go first, or pulled out watching your movements with a high degree of caution so he could ride alongside side you (if the road is wide enough - a dual carriageway for example).

At T-junctions with a queue I would usually filter up to the second car in line, and squeeze in between the lead car (you in this case) and the second car, so I had my own place in the queue before using the junction.

[Guest Noodle]

I'm a biker and I say that it's his fault. He filtered to jump the queue and was aware of the fact you were at a junction and about to pull out, he should have either let you go first, or pulled out watching your movements with a high degree of caution so he could ride alongside side you (if the road is wide enough - a dual carriageway for example).

At T-junctions with a queue I would usually filter up to the second car in line, and squeeze in between the lead car (you in this case) and the second car, so I had my own place in the queue before using the junction.

Sounds like a pretty inexperienced rider, bit too eager. One lad I knew got his license, got a new Ducati 748 and totaled the thing on the first bend, but thankfully not himself.

[JustYield]

I'm a biker and I say that it's his fault. He filtered to jump the queue and was aware of the fact you were at a junction and about to pull out, he should have either let you go first, or pulled out watching your movements with a high degree of caution so he could ride alongside side you (if the road is wide enough - a dual carriageway for example).

At T-junctions with a queue I would usually filter up to the second car in line, and squeeze in between the lead car (you in this case) and the second car, so I had my own place in the queue before using the junction.

Yes. Here in Singapore he's probably got away with this manoeuvre a thousand times, but I'm a bit more of an assertive driver than average and pull away promptly.

The point is really I wish I'd just hung back and let him go, it was pretty obvious what he intended to do. So in a sense I blame myself and now have all the claims hassle.

On the other hand he may have now learned an important lesson.

[JustYield]

I'm still not really clear on the road layout. Can you find it for us on Google Maps?

Pretty certain it's the Ducati bloke's fault anyway as he rode into a space already occupied by your car - obviously wasn't looking.

You might need to rotate the image:

I think I'm on solid ground insurance-wise, unless he bare face lies, but in the bigger scheme I wish I'd practice my defensive driving better rather than being determined to hold my place in a queue. It's pathetic really. Ho hum, still learning.

[6538]

Nasty and stupid incident this morning driving to work. Luckily no one was hurt.

I'd like experienced driver's views on who was to blame:

1. I pull up to a give-way sign ready to turn left, 2 cars are ahead of me in the queue.

2. As I get to the front of the queue and wait for a gap to turn onto the main road a motorbike appears at the give-way junction and sits on my right: clearly intending to jump the queue.

3. Gap appears in traffic and I pull out as it is now my turn and presumably still my right of way. Motorcycle rider also pulls out and drives the Ducati straight into driver's door having up to then been looking right to check gap in traffic.

Who's really to blame?

The biker.

[quine]

Without question it's the motor cyclists' fault. You always need to be able to stop in the distance ahead you can see to be clear (I did an Advanced Driving course years 'n years ago and that is such an important thing to remember). Don't think many Singapore drivers have been on that course!

[Gone baby gone]

You might need to rotate the image:

I think I'm on solid ground insurance-wise, unless he bare face lies, but in the bigger scheme I wish I'd practice my defensive driving better rather than being determined to hold my place in a queue. It's pathetic really. Ho hum, still learning.

He is absolutely, unequivocally at fault - can't even see how he could lie to make you look at fault unless there were no witnesses.

[JustYield]

Without question it's the motor cyclists' fault. You always need to be able to stop in the distance ahead you can see to be clear (I did an Advanced Driving course years 'n years ago and that is such an important thing to remember). Don't think many Singapore drivers have been on that course!

Too right. In Singapore you must drive defensively and allow for people not being in complete control or aware of their surroundings generally. They seem to be afraid of the steering wheel and chronically understeer around bends, often ending up on the wrong side of the road!

Getting used to the heat a a bit? Some cooler days recently.

[Concrete Jungle]

As a biker from your version of events I would say the biker was at fault.

[Guest Noodle]

Too right. In Singapore you must drive defensively and allow for people not being in complete control or aware of their surroundings generally. They seem to be afraid of the steering wheel and chronically understeer around bends, often ending up on the wrong side of the road!

Getting used to the heat a a bit? Some cooler days recently.

Dreading the run into Mukdahan tomorrow. Intend setting off at 3am, no traffic at all, get there at 5.30am.

[non frog]

As a motorcyclist I would think that if you intend to turn left as this individual did he should have been on that side of the car at the junction. First rule of biking is to be on the defensive and never put yourself where someone else might want to be. Besides you could filter into a space that the car couldn't so this guy was probably missing an opportunity to make progress. I'd agree with the assessment that he was probably inexperienced - hope this helps him in future.

Hope you both settle the insurance amicably. Very pleased to hear no one hurt.

[Guest Noodle]

How bad was the bike? Damaged/unrideable?

[swissy_fit]

You might need to rotate the image:

As presented there, it's his fault.

Your point about avoiding the problem by being more defensive is a good one though.

I annoy my wife and children when they moan about other road users by telling them that it's no good being correct and dead.

[JustYield]

How bad was the bike? Damaged/unrideable?

As far as I could tell only minor damage to his wing mirror! He didn't drop it.

[Woot]

Yeah he apologised, admitted fault and said he was tired after his shift. I've put all this in my claim. But I fear he will change his story when his insurance company asks him. Then we'd have to go legal and its not worth pursuing then (the door damage is a few hundred dollars).

Hang on... are you in Sing just now... if so I've no idea what law\reg would apply?

From a UK perspective on a UK road it would look like he was in the wrong - and why would he be in the right of the lane when he wanted to turn left if he were driving correctly?

Edit: Just looked at your image - can't see how he could argue that it was your fault. Must've been very tired indeed! Hope you can settle it amicably.

[JustYield]

Hang on... are you in Sing just now... if so I've no idea what law would apply?

From a UK perspective on a UK road it would look like he was in the wrong - and why would he be in the right of the lane when he wanted to turn left if he were driving correctly?

Same law here, it's based on the UK system. He was being cheeky and didn't think I'd be in his way as I was in a slow, lumbering family car. He was arguably in the correct position if he was going to go into lane 2 as redalert said above and thus not trouble me at all. In general bikers should maintain a dominant road position to the right of centre, but in this case he arrived after me and so the sensible thing would be to wait for me to clear off rather than jumping the queue. There was only a few seconds from his arriving in that position and us both pulling out.

Thanks for all the comments, it really was as clear cut as this, but I doubt it will be so simple with the insurance companies.