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Tig


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Absoultely. But returning to the point you made -- that "both sides are too foolish to understand their own self interest" -- the UK doesn't lose anything by wealthy people departing and falling back on their non-UK wealth (okay, it loses skills/spending-power/tax but in terms of its own productive resources ... they're all still here).

The UK's self-interest is not to have people leaving while still making claims on its productive capacity, and that's entirely under the UK's own control.

The rate of growth in productive capacity is a partial function of the willingness of the owners of capital to employ it here rather than elsewhere.

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Quite. LuckyOne's strategising rather relies on the fact that governments won't tax or confiscate property or nationalise corporations.

Or rather, that there is a government somewhere that won't.

The bond markets operate under the same logic. There's always a safe haven. Except last time there was a big hoo-ha, the safe havens charged foreign holders of debt a negative rate to hold their debt (switzerland, late 70s). Because they could.

Basically he is saying he assumes there will always be an administration that will prioritise the needs of the few over the many, and of foreigners over domestics and that these places will have sufficient global clout to defend those interests.

I'll agree that has been the case for the last couple of hundred years but certainly over w wider historical viewpoint the outlook for this kind of escape route looks rather bleak, unless you happen to be a warlord.

One of the reasons for negative interest rates on Swiss liabilities held by foreigners in the late 70s was that capital flows into Switzerland were so large that the currency was appreciating at such a high rate that Swiss industry was being decimated. While negative rates did slow down the Franc's appreciation, the total return to foreign holders of CHF were still very positive in terms of most investors' home currency.

I do agree that we could get into a mad max world where all correlations go to 1. In that case, my strategy will fail. My expectation is that all correlations will not go to 1 as well managed economies will not have to resort to the same levels of destructive taxation as poorly run economies. If nothing else, diversification and a bit of insurance (physical gold) will allow me to hang on longer than people with highly correlated assets and income streams.

I also agree with you that negative interest rates are a logical conclusion for the deflationary bust that has to follow the credit bubble that has now popped in many places. Negative nominal rates can still allow for a positive real return. It is not rational to expect that nominal wealth can be maintained in a sustained period of deflation.

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The wife and I arrived back here five years ago after many years abroad. Not easy to say the least to give up our whole way of life and come back to a hostile family.(we came back to look after my Mum)

The key for us was having cash, most problems can be solved by throwing money at them. We did indeed arrive with 2 suitcases but around 20 boxes arrived later by sea mail...clothes, tools and Knicknaks. Once you've done it once you can do it again more easily I think. Sometimes you just have to walk away.

Agreed.

Another trick is to learn that there are some problems that you just cannot solve no matter how much money, blood, sweat or tears you throw at them.

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If the bankers truely ruled the world it would be a much fairer place where people are rewarded for the work they do and the risks they take

Actually you're underselling the virtues of 'banker world' a bit here.

The reality is even better; in 'banker world' people reap vast rewards even if totally incompetent at the work they do and are bailed out by taxpayers if the risks they take don't work out.

Yes indeed, a world run by bankers would be a paradise on earth- so long as there are people left to steal from.

Edited by wonderpup
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I hate posts like these, its just so ironic.

You are complaining that the bankers are using the little people as a scape goat while you are basically laying the blame on 'them' whoever that is for the fact that you live in a broken society where popping out kids and faking a disability or happening to be old and therefore having bought a house at a reasonable cost is the best and only way to riches.

A society where it is basically impossible to work hard and succeed because half your money is taken in tax to pay for the first lots lazyness and the other half given to your boomer landlord to pay for his.

Fvck off

Its not the bankers fault at all. OK maybe a little bit but all they do is take advantage of the crappy broken system. What this country needs is a little free market reality and a stop to all levels of government over-interference.

If the bankers truely ruled the world it would be a much fairer place where people are rewarded for the work they do and the risks they take . Personally i'd vote for a banker before a socialist boomer any day

Hilarious, totally insane, one of the nuttiest nut job posts I've ever seen here.

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By and large they're not, apparently.

I suspect that you are right. This ought to be a chilling warning to the providers of the other means of production (especially labour) and the consumers of some of the output (income redistribution programs). The owners of capital have observed a relative decrease in the attractiveness of the UK as a place to do business and are increasingly deploying it elsewhere. Capital has a memory so this trend will be increasingly difficult to reverse.

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Quite. LuckyOne's strategising rather relies on the fact that governments won't tax or confiscate property or nationalise corporations.

Or rather, that there is a government somewhere that won't.

The bond markets operate under the same logic. There's always a safe haven. Except last time there was a big hoo-ha, the safe havens charged foreign holders of debt a negative rate to hold their debt (switzerland, late 70s). Because they could.

Basically he is saying he assumes there will always be an administration that will prioritise the needs of the few over the many, and of foreigners over domestics and that these places will have sufficient global clout to defend those interests.

I'll agree that has been the case for the last couple of hundred years but certainly over w wider historical viewpoint the outlook for this kind of escape route looks rather bleak, unless you happen to be a warlord.

Even a warlord needs a warband and weapons and has to cart them about with him. It's been done of course, but by and large such bands need employers - look at the condottieri (a word which means more or less 'contractors'). Freelance self-reliant gangs of bandits don't tend to last very long, because1. they may well have to compete against other such gangs, either directly in combat or because another gang has already snaffled all the resources in the surrounding area, 2. prey communities may turn out to have some bite after all and 3. the members often turn on each other.

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Agreed.

Another trick is to learn that there are some problems that you just cannot solve no matter how much money, blood, sweat or tears you throw at them.

This is also true, sometimes you have to stand and take it. Time moves on and if it doesn't heal at least it changes things.

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That's a very good question. Maybe it 'dissappeared' as it never really existed in the first place.

Those hundreds of billions were "lost" in... bad loans, right?

To whom? To millions of debtors that can't pay back their loans to the banks.

Who are they? Million of property buyers, and property MEWers (mortgage equity withdraw-ers)

Where did they spend their money?

The property buyers bought from someone. Some of these STR, and have the money now. These are happy. :)

The MEWers spent in... oh, so many nice things: cars, holidays, flat screens, millions of people, spending thousands of pounds.

Remember, just 1 million people spending 1 thousand pounds each and a billion is gone.

For quite a few years, dozens of millions of British people spent well over, well over 1 thousand pounds more than what they have earned.

.

Edited by Tired of Waiting
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Guest absolutezero

This debate seems to have moved on from "some of you are a bit thick and haven't noticed once they've finished shafting these people they'll be coming for you next".

Just thought I'd point that out because when I've been involved in taking a topic off topic I've got moaned at.

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That used to be my favourite question...."WHO HAS GOT THE MONEY?"

It doesn't just disappear. Someone has it.

Why did the BoE print? Because the money originally earned from trade was quickly being withdrawn from Sterling investments in the banks SIVs and SPV's...you know the mortgage bonds.

The investors (bond holders) did not take a hit like they should. They still have the money.

That is another reason why people fear inflation...because that money can come back into circulation and buy up assets at any time.

Of course the staff of the banks have filched it too via bonuses paid on inflated profits never to fully materialise over the previous decade and a half.

Then there are all those property developers who have taken big profits out whilst leaving their "property vehicles" and hence the banks and then us with the losses. Think the Icelandic lot, the Irish lot....where is their money? There is much talk that it has disappeared into offshore tax havens and the like. Switzerland.

The list is depressingly long.

The main point is that behind "irresponsible lending" there is always "irresponsible borrowing". If someone adds all this up, I am very sure that the amount lost by irresponsible borrowers [email protected] is much greater than the bonuses taken by the thieving [email protected] banks directors. (All equally [email protected], no doubt about that.) And most of these borrowers were what in America they call middle classes, and we call working classes. Not elites at all.

My point is that the [email protected] was class-less. Actually, in aggregate numbers, the total lost by "non-elite" agents was probably much greater (just by virtue of sheers numbers), than by the banks' directors.

Just one little example: In this past decade we had a few million British people moving to the Spanish Costas, Algarve, and the like. Most sold their UK properties to fund that. If just 1 million pensioners sold their homes for just 150k each, just there you have already 150 billion pounds.

Edited by Tired of Waiting
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This debate seems to have moved on from "some of you are a bit thick and haven't noticed once they've finished shafting these people they'll be coming for you next".

Just thought I'd point that out because when I've been involved in taking a topic off topic I've got moaned at.

There is no "they", just humans.

Everyone in the World takes what they can, there is no caste of bad people who do banking and poor nice guys who do poverty. Swap them around and the bank wouldn't become a benign institution.

The issue isn't "banksters", to coin a phrase, but system which condones the use of force to compel people to join in with the will of others.

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