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Joan Bakewell - Who Should Pay For Elderly Care?

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8849000/8849847.stm

In a specially authored Panorama, Dame Joan Bakewell, who recently stepped down as the government's Voice of Older People, explores the challenges ahead in caring for our ageing population. With the first wave of baby boomers about to turn 65, the question of who should be asked to pay for that care could not be more timely. As Dame Joan, 77, points out, amid talk from successive governments about tackling the problem, the old keep on getting older.

We talk about it quite a lot, we older people, when we get together.

Once we've checked out our latest ailments, the inadequacies of doctors, the car parking at the hospital and our dislike of being called by our first names we get round to the real concerns - how will we end our days?

When I was the government-appointed Voice of Older People I received letters asking me just that, help with putting an end to a miserable life.

One correspondent even wrote cheerily that he had it all sorted. His plan was a good bottle of whisky, a cache of pills and a recording of Mozart's Requiem.

Most older people worry what will happen when they get frail - and we will all get there at some point, so this is an issue for everyone.

Nearly 70% of men and some 85% of women over the age of 65 will be needing care at some time.

'Frail not ill'

It is just that some of us are nearer that destination than others.

The independent commission on the funding of care set up last week by the Health Secretary Andrew Lansley is expected to report within a year.

That is not a moment too soon for older people, their needs are immediate and pressing.

The fact is you can be frail without being ill. And that is a significant distinction.

Illness means we are entitled to be treated, free of charge, under the National Health Service.

But frailty - the need for help with washing, dressing and the intimacies of our personal hygiene is not paid for by the state.

This surprises many people - and makes some of them very cross indeed.

You hear them say: "I've worked hard, paid my taxes all my life, surely I am entitled to free care in my old age."

The answer - however regrettable - is no you are probably not. Only the very poor are entitled.

So what are the options? How shall we pay for those last years of dependency and weakness?

I have been out around the country seeking details of the different solutions.

Selling up

I travelled to Dorset, the county that has the highest proportion of old people in the country, to Somerset where I met a woman who is selling the family home to pay for residential care for her mother.

On a brighter note, I visited Birmingham to see how ambitious schemes for new retirement villages are offering a cheery environment and 24 hour care for its residents.

I discovered two important things - there are many different ways of growing old and those that are the most successful need some forethought and planning.

I also found that there are old people up and down the country facing their older years with confidence and optimism. It is not, thankfully, all doom and gloom.

That said, for some people, such as Cathy Morgan, the gloom is very real. Cathy's mother, Marian Croucher has encroaching dementia, which meant she was judged to need residential care.

Cathy had already left her rented home in London and moved into the family home to care for her, but is now faced with selling up to pay for the kind of care Cathy wanted for her mother.

The move could render Cathy herself, together with her husband and son, without a home to call their own.

Such a case epitomises the worst fears we all have that we shall be overtaken by such compelling - and expensive - needs.

Many people balk at the idea of having to sell their homes, and they do have our sympathy.

But on the other hand it is hard to expect to burden the taxpayer with paying for that care when those same people are sitting on considerable assets, which can run into hundreds of thousands of pounds thanks to this country's property market boom.

It is a contentious issue.

'Golden years'

At the other extreme from Marion Croucher was the happy case of Chris and Olive Quinn.

They have sold up their home in Edgebaston and moved into the newly opened New Oscott Village, a Birmingham City Council-backed enterprise run by the Extracare Charitable Trust.

The village offers some 260 retirement flats and has been deluged with some 2000 enquiries from prospective seniors looking to move in.

It is easy to see why - the on-site gym, restaurant, shops, and bar, as well as 24-hour medical care.

Olive and Chris are as happy as larks. Olive, who has arthritis, is already planning an exercise regime that will get her back on her feet.

Their cheeriness, enthusiasm and genuine affection for their life together and their new home remind us that old age can be a golden time. Would it were so for more of us.

All the experts I have met - from the King's Fund health care think tank to Age UK to the people running Dorset County Council - agree the matter is of the utmost urgency.

I am also of the view that the sense of urgency has been fudged in recent years with rival pre-election claims and counter claims from different political directions. All the while, the old are getting older.

Mr Lansley's newly-announced commission lays the field wide open to consider ways of paying for care that could be compulsory or optional.

Someone will have to decide soon.

Panorama: The Generation Game, BBC One, Monday, 26 July at 2030BST.

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Guest Noodle

You always know when something terrible is about to happen when Joan Bakewell reports on it.

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You always know when something terrible is about to happen when Joan Bakewell reports on it.

In the coming years there will be all sorts of QUANGOs and Commissions set up by Parliament to investigate this and loads of money spent on the salaries and fees and expenses of those appointed to such boards :rolleyes:

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Guest Noodle

In the coming years there will be all sorts of QUANGOs and Commissions set up by Parliament to investigate this and loads of money spent on the salaries and fees and expenses of those appointed to such boards :rolleyes:

Yes, Joan Bakewell's gob costs a fortune. She can make anything sound urgent to terminal.

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can they be used as an energy source

how many calories in a Bakewell tart?

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But on the other hand it is hard to expect to burden the taxpayer with paying for that care when those same people are sitting on considerable assets, which can run into hundreds of thousands of pounds thanks to this country's property market boom.

The ultimate MEW.

If the govt. is going to take it off you when you go senile then you may as well p1ss it up the wall when you're younger.

What happens in so called non-developed countries/communities?

What do the Amish do, for instance, when their elderly need care I wonder?

Some other aspects aside, this seems to be a commendable approach. Not sure how it fits with a debt-laden, bankster-ridded society though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

The elderly do not go to a retirement facility; they remain at home. If the family house is large enough they continue living with everyone else. Oftentimes there is an adjacent dwelling, called the Grossdaadi Haus, where grandparents take up residence. Retired people continue to help with work on the farm and within the home, working at their own pace as they are able. This allows them independence but does not strip them of family involvement.[42]

The Amish method of retirement ensures that the elderly maintain contact with family and relatives. Loneliness is not a problem because they keep meaningful social contacts through various community events, such as frolics, auctions, weddings, holiday, and other community activities.[43]

If the aged become ill or infirm, then the other family members take up caring for them. The elderly parents once helped raise the younger members, therefore the younger family care for them in their old age.

Edited by Frank Sidebottom

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The ultimate MEW.

If the govt. is going to take it off you when you go senile then you may as well p1ss it up the wall when you're younger.

What happens in so called non-developed countries/communities?

What do the Amish do, for instance, when their elderly need care I wonder?

Some other aspects aside, this seems to be a commendable approach. Not sure how it fits with a debt-laden, bankster-ridded society though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

The only thing wrong now is that those that pissed it away will get the same care as those who pay for it. This never happens in most of the rest of the world. Fear of old age makes it necesary to save for it and families to take it on. While care is guaranteed, ability to pay or not, it will not be fair. Why should the country keep you if you spent it all. And putting on a death tax to pay for everyone is ludicrous. It will just continue to subsidise those who spend all their money and not save. I think there is nothing wrong in people selling their house to pay for care home costs. Just because they want some family member to inherit the house should not mean the taxpayer subsidises it. And if you save no money why should you get the same level of care that you get if you are paying. If familys want to inherit they must get their hands dirty and help shoulder the caring.

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The ultimate MEW.

If the govt. is going to take it off you when you go senile then you may as well p1ss it up the wall when you're younger.

What happens in so called non-developed countries/communities?

What do the Amish do, for instance, when their elderly need care I wonder?

Some other aspects aside, this seems to be a commendable approach. Not sure how it fits with a debt-laden, bankster-ridded society though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

Read my previous posts regarding this subject. This is entirely what I am planning to do and more so the reason why I'm no longer planning to buy a flat/house and why I'm slowly diminishing the deposit I had to buy one on holidays etc.

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Guest Steve Cook

Look after your old. Your children will learn from your actions and they will be the ones choosing your nursing home one day.

Edited by Steve Cook

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Look after your old. Your children will learn from your actions and they will be the ones choosing your nursing home one day.

Lok after your kids, so they will voluntarily help you.

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Guest Steve Cook

Lok after your kids, so they will voluntarily help you.

Forgive me, I made the erroneous assumption that the above was so mind numbingly obvious that even a village idiot such as your good self would not need it saying.

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Forgive me, I made the erroneous assumption that the above was so mind numbingly obvious that even a village idiot such as your good self would not need it saying.

oh I just like to ***** your conscience, Steve.

You know that.

lft.jpg

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Look after your old. Your children will learn from your actions and they will be the ones choosing your nursing home one day.

Lead by example. Do what you want when no ones watching.

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Guest Steve Cook

Lead by example. Do what you want when no ones watching.

I don't understand what you mean Alan

Edited by Steve Cook

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I don't understand what you mean Alan

You've stated that you want to make a show of looking after the old un's.

I was just saying you don't need to bother when you and pappi are the only trees in the forest.

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Guest Steve Cook

You've stated that you want to make a show of looking after the old un's.

I was just saying you don't need to bother when you and pappi are the only trees in the forest.

Well, I was referring more to setting an example to your kids of how to behave in a moral fashion. But, we can call it "making a show", if you prefer Alan....

I suppose that if you don't have kids not ever intend to have any, then it is of course possible to leave your parents to rot without the need to worry about whether your kids will also learn to be a selfish b*stard in the process.

Edited by Steve Cook

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Oh I see

I suppose that if you don't have kids not ever intend to have any, then it is of course possible to leave your parents to rot without the need to worry about whether your kids will also learn to be a selfish b*stard in the process.

What I meant to highlight is that you should be looking after your parents because you want to - not to serve some future end.

Parents are very good at putting on a moral show for their kids - which is not represented in their actual mental standing.

Do as I do - not as I "do", if you see what I mean.

When the kids arent around - you can slap father for wetting the bed and letting the dog lick his dribble.

Edited by Alan B'Stard MP

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Guest Steve Cook

What I meant to highlight is that you should be looking after your parents because you want to - not to serve some future end.

Parents are very good at putting on a moral show for their kids - which is not represented in their actual mental standing.

Do as I do - not as I "do", if you see what I mean.

In the end, Alan, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, we can call it a duck.

Much of human behaviour is little more than cultural ritual. We develop these rituals because we know that sometimes our short term selfishness can let us down in the moment. So a certain degree of mindless following of those rituals gets people though those moments.

It goes without saying, however, there are massive dangers in the above. So obvious I'll not bother outlining them.

Edited by Steve Cook

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Guest Noodle

In the end, Alan, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, we can call it a duck.

Much of human behaviour is little more than cultural ritual. We develop these rituals because we know that sometimes our short term selfishness can let us down in the moment. So a certain degree of mindless following of those rituals gets people though those moments.

Only if you do the kids college fund in Vegas. ;)

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In the end, Alan, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, we can call it a duck.

Much of human behaviour is little more than cultural ritual. We develop these rituals because we know that sometimes our short term selfishness can let us down in the moment. So a certain degree of mindless following of those rituals gets people though those moments.

It goes without saying, however, there are massive dangers in the above. So obvious I'll not bother outlining them.

Maybe...on a macro scale you might think so and I might agree.

Personally, I would toy with the idea that if the minutiae isn't wholesome it won't scale up to a macro view in any substantial way - not in this day and age anyway.

Edited by Alan B'Stard MP

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The elderly should pay for their own long term care if they require it, I am sure they would prefer to pay for quality care if they can afford it, there are no pockets in shrouds as they say......or live in a granny annex near the children, I am sure they wouldn't mind. ;)

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Look after your old. Your children will learn from your actions and they will be the ones choosing your nursing home one day.

i dont necessarily disagree but a certain group of people dont seem to have had too much thought for their offspring

such as

  1. electing idiots

  2. voting themselves a free lunch

  3. debt

  4. allowing the bankers to control the world

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That 'don't like being called by your first name thing' is, alas, true.

Never used to bother me but, at the grand old age of 58, when in hospital recently I found it galling having young 'slips of things' nurses calling me by my first name and, worse, talking to me slowly and deliberately as if I were some sort of idiot.

Mind you I am some sort of idiot. The sort that believes house prices will go down!

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  • 259 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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