Serious Fraud Office

[apom]

Durring a previous thread I posted title "Lie To Buy"

I took action to begin investigation into the mortgage fraud endemic.

This was the orriginal thread

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...opic=14247&st=0

I contacted (via E-mail ) the Serious Fraud Office and recieved a reply.

I am not meant to release the content of the e-mail I recieved in way of a reply, but as it contains no specific informationa and only their stance I have confered with a legal colleague who said there should be no problem

This was their response.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email.

This is not the type of fraud that the SFO can investigate because it does not

meet the acceptance criteria of the office. The Serious Fraud Office

investigates cases of serious and complex fraud in the UK. There must generally

be a minimum loss of £1 million, a significant international dimension to the

case and it must be in the public interest to initiate an investigation using

public funds.

It is unlikely that an investigation by any prosecutory body could be initiated

concerning a problem which is endemic across an entire industry, unless evidence

of specific examples is provided. Any individual cases should be reported to the

Police. However long-term change is unlikely to be achieved by a series of

criminal prosecutions. You should write to your MP suggesting that he raise the

issue in Parliament, with the intention that a report or Committee into the

issue should be commissioned.

Yours faithfully

The Serious Fraud Office

The 1 million mark that they quote.

Beyound a shadow od any doubt that this in monetry terms is the largest amount ever involved in a crime.

I have replied to push further.

The MP comment..?

there is a good draft letter within the content of the thread above.

Wednesday, 24 August 2005

Rt Hon Oliver Letwin

House of Commons

LONDON

SW1A 0AA

LIE TO BUY MORTGAGE FRAUD

Dear Mr Letwin

I am writing to ask for your support in bringing an end to serious fraud that is being perpetrated still despite investigations begun by the BBC Money Programme in 20031.

Figures released by the Council of Mortage Lenders in 2004 show that 1/3rd of all mortgage lending was “income non-verified” and 1/5th of all mortgage debt had never had income verified against the borrowing.

The FSA conducted a review into the self-certified mortgage market in early 2004 which concluded that lenders had sufficient controls in place against fraud.2 The FSA also issued guidelines to mortgage lenders in February 2004 which included the following information :

“From Oct 31 2004, lenders will need to comply with the MCOB 11 rules on responsible lending, which will require assessment of ability to repay whatever the LTV ratio.” 3

Non-verified lending at the end of 2003 amounted to £147bn of outstanding mortgage balances. It is a criminal offence to lie about your income to obtain a mortgage.

I believe that the practice of turning a blind eye to income verification continues today. I am only able to base this on anecdotal evidence, but I am confident that an analysis of further information would provide supporting evidence of a more substantial kind.

The income non-verified mortgages figures from lenders and earnings figures from the government statistics office ( that should be modal average earnings, i.e. what most of us earn rather than a national average figure that is swollen by massive salaries very quickly ) would show that current house prices make purchase impossible for many buyers without resorting to lying about their income.

There’s a lot of debt out there. There are many of us who prefer to play with a straight bat and comply with the law. House purchase has been put out of our reach and that of our families because of the massive scale that fraud has been, and continues to be, carried out in the mortgage market.

Please can you look into this and let me know your findings.

Yours sincerely

(Thanks to struthitsruth for that one.)

so take action, read this..

Feel agrieved, read the previous thread and contact your MP.

Tp find your MP go to

http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/alms.cfm

I am to keep trying to get the serious Fraud office to take action. If you fancy assiting with that do so, your energies may be better spent contacting your MP

I appologise for spelling and grammar

[Warwickshire Lad]

apom - well done. Keep us updated with your progress and any reply you might get from Mr. Letwin.

[OnlyMe]

<i>There must generally be a minimum loss of £1 million</i>

We are talking £10Bn's !

Apom, it is an interesting tack. It will go uninvestigated but when the money goes down the swanee then maybe a washup investigation will be held.

What about the mortgage/asset backed security buyers? Do they really have any idea about what is being shoved into their debt portfolios? I suspect it is more mortgage and less asset than they realise.

[GCS15]

Good work. It's one thing to whinge on this forum and it's another thing to actually put pressure on the Politicians to do something about it.

Two thumbs up

[apom]

Good work. It's one thing to whinge on this forum and it's another thing to actually put pressure on the Politicians to do something about it.

Two thumbs up

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks guys..

I have suuplied the link to find your own MP's and a copy of a letter written by another contributer.. a letter I couldn't better (poetry.. ahh....)

Please do the same.

Its a printout and a stamp

Take the chance..

should I put the letter in another thread?

CONTACT YOUR MP...?

[Wuluf]

done with apom aplomb

Edited August 30, 2005 by Wuluf

[apom]

New thread to contact your MP.

Go here

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...showtopic=14687

and please do this.

[eurows]

Surely the only way the fraud office would intervene would be if the banks called them in. And that ain't going to happen

[apom]

No, actually its their job.

Its a crime and needs investigating.

Can anyone argue that this is not the largest financial crime ever undertaken my a huge margin..

[eurows]

Its only a crime if it's reported as a crime.

If the banks allow it then I am not sure how it is a crime.

If I tell you you can steal £10.00 from me. Can I then report it as a crime

[OnlyMe]

Its only a crime if it's reported as a crime.

If the banks allow it then I am not sure how it is a crime.

If I tell you you can steal £10.00 from me. Can I then report it as a crime

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If that £10 is not actually yours (and you traded £10 of value before passing it on the liability) then I think a crime may well have been committed.

[GCS15]

Its only a crime if it's reported as a crime.

If the banks allow it then I am not sure how it is a crime.

If I tell you you can steal £10.00 from me. Can I then report it as a crime

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If your laws are anything like those in Oz, and they are, then this isn't a crime as you gave consent. He can't steal it from you if you say it's ok.

For a crime to be a crime their needs to be a complainant(sp). In the case of a murder the complainant is the crown.

From what I understand the situation here is that lenders would need to complain that they have been the victims of fraud.

AM I on the right track? or is my blood sugar to low and my synapses firing wildly again?

[Mushroom]

The Crown Prosecution Service, which decides whether to proceed with any action after police investigation, has to consider if such action is "in the public interest".

I suspect that, even if this state of affairs is criminal, any action by them might be considered as "not in the public interest".

This is a useful catch all clause that can be used in, shall we say, "politically sensitive situations".

Perhaps what is being discussed here is the failure of regulatory systems.

And we've seen that before.

[libitina]

Have you tried bringing this up with the media?

Panorama, Tonight with Trevor Macdonald, Watchdog, Cutting Edge? Something along those lines?

[Clouseau]

Have you tried bringing this up with the media?

Panorama, Tonight with Trevor Macdonald, Watchdog, Cutting Edge? Something along those lines?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or the press? perhaps one of the dailiesSundays might wanna get campaigning, since property matters are of major interest to many readers?

[Marina]

Of course it is a crime and it is the police / CPS that decide whether to prosecute.

Just because you self-certify your earnings does not mean it is not a crime to lie about them. It is fraud.

[OzzMosiz]

Have you tried bringing this up with the media?

Panorama, Tonight with Trevor Macdonald, Watchdog, Cutting Edge? Something along those lines?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very good point!!

[libitina]

Very good point!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

panorama@bbc.co.uk

Watchdog http://www.bbc.co.uk/feedback/

Edited August 30, 2005 by libitina

[Mushroom]

<i>There must generally be a minimum loss of £1 million</i>

We are talking £10Bn's !

Apom, it is an interesting tack. It will go uninvestigated but when the money goes down the swanee then maybe a washup investigation will be held.

What about the mortgage/asset backed security buyers? Do they really have any idea about what is being shoved into their debt portfolios? I suspect it is more mortgage and less asset than they realise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Part of my point.

While the total involved may be high, each case would likely not involve £1 million.

Each alleged case would have to be investigated. How many thousands?

The Government is not going to allow such expenditure on investigation.

Thousands before the courts for this? I think not.

Let alone those thousands then taking civil action against lenders for irresponsible lending.

It's a potential nightmare for the authorities involved.

It's been "nod and a wink" stuff that has suited those involved.

Edited August 30, 2005 by Mushroom

[Scooter]

Durring a previous thread I posted title "Lie To Buy"

I took action to begin investigation into the mortgage fraud endemic.

This was the orriginal thread

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...opic=14247&st=0

I contacted (via E-mail ) the Serious Fraud Office and recieved a reply.

I am not meant to release the content of the e-mail I recieved in way of a reply, but as it contains no specific informationa and only their stance I have confered with a legal colleague who said there should be no problem

This was their response.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email.

This is not the type of fraud that the SFO can investigate because it does not

meet the acceptance criteria of the office. The Serious Fraud Office

investigates cases of serious and complex fraud in the UK. There must generally

be a minimum loss of £1 million, a significant international dimension to the

case and it must be in the public interest to initiate an investigation using

public funds.

It is unlikely that an investigation by any prosecutory body could be initiated

concerning a problem which is endemic across an entire industry, unless evidence

of specific examples is provided. Any individual cases should be reported to the

Police. However long-term change is unlikely to be achieved by a series of

criminal prosecutions. You should write to your MP suggesting that he raise the

issue in Parliament, with the intention that a report or Committee into the

issue should be commissioned.

Yours faithfully

The Serious Fraud Office

The 1 million mark that they quote.

Beyound a shadow od any doubt that this in monetry terms is the largest amount ever involved in a crime.

I have replied to push further.

The MP comment..?

there is a good draft letter within the content of the thread above.

Wednesday, 24 August 2005

Rt Hon Oliver Letwin

House of Commons

LONDON

SW1A 0AA

LIE TO BUY MORTGAGE FRAUD

Dear Mr Letwin

I am writing to ask for your support in bringing an end to serious fraud that is being perpetrated still despite investigations begun by the BBC Money Programme in 20031.

Figures released by the Council of Mortage Lenders in 2004 show that 1/3rd of all mortgage lending was “income non-verified” and 1/5th of all mortgage debt had never had income verified against the borrowing.

The FSA conducted a review into the self-certified mortgage market in early 2004 which concluded that lenders had sufficient controls in place against fraud.2 The FSA also issued guidelines to mortgage lenders in February 2004 which included the following information :

“From Oct 31 2004, lenders will need to comply with the MCOB 11 rules on responsible lending, which will require assessment of ability to repay whatever the LTV ratio.” 3

Non-verified lending at the end of 2003 amounted to £147bn of outstanding mortgage balances. It is a criminal offence to lie about your income to obtain a mortgage.

I believe that the practice of turning a blind eye to income verification continues today. I am only able to base this on anecdotal evidence, but I am confident that an analysis of further information would provide supporting evidence of a more substantial kind.

The income non-verified mortgages figures from lenders and earnings figures from the government statistics office ( that should be modal average earnings, i.e. what most of us earn rather than a national average figure that is swollen by massive salaries very quickly ) would show that current house prices make purchase impossible for many buyers without resorting to lying about their income.

There’s a lot of debt out there. There are many of us who prefer to play with a straight bat and comply with the law. House purchase has been put out of our reach and that of our families because of the massive scale that fraud has been, and continues to be, carried out in the mortgage market.

Please can you look into this and let me know your findings.

Yours sincerely

(Thanks to struthitsruth for that one.)

so take action, read this..

Feel agrieved, read the previous thread and contact your MP.

Tp find your MP go to

http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/alms.cfm

I am to keep trying to get the serious Fraud office to take action. If you fancy assiting with that do so, your energies may be better spent contacting your MP

I appologise for spelling and grammar

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You could copy it to the shadow chancellor George Osborne as well.

[Scooter]

Durring a previous thread I posted title "Lie To Buy"

I took action to begin investigation into the mortgage fraud endemic.

This was the orriginal thread

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...opic=14247&st=0

I contacted (via E-mail ) the Serious Fraud Office and recieved a reply.

I am not meant to release the content of the e-mail I recieved in way of a reply, but as it contains no specific informationa and only their stance I have confered with a legal colleague who said there should be no problem

This was their response.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email.

This is not the type of fraud that the SFO can investigate because it does not meet the acceptance criteria of the office. The Serious Fraud Office

investigates cases of serious and complex fraud in the UK. There must generally

be a minimum loss of £1 million, a significant international dimension to the

case and it must be in the public interest to initiate an investigation using

public funds.

It is unlikely that an investigation by any prosecutory body could be initiated

concerning a problem which is endemic across an entire industry, unless evidence

of specific examples is provided. Any individual cases should be reported to the

Police. However long-term change is unlikely to be achieved by a series of

criminal prosecutions. You should write to your MP suggesting that he raise the

issue in Parliament, with the intention that a report or Committee into the

issue should be commissioned.

Yours faithfully

The Serious Fraud Office

The 1 million mark that they quote.

Beyound a shadow od any doubt that this in monetry terms is the largest amount ever involved in a crime.

I have replied to push further.

The MP comment..?

there is a good draft letter within the content of the thread above.

Wednesday, 24 August 2005

Rt Hon Oliver Letwin

House of Commons

LONDON

SW1A 0AA

LIE TO BUY MORTGAGE FRAUD

Dear Mr Letwin

I am writing to ask for your support in bringing an end to serious fraud that is being perpetrated still despite investigations begun by the BBC Money Programme in 20031.

Figures released by the Council of Mortage Lenders in 2004 show that 1/3rd of all mortgage lending was “income non-verified” and 1/5th of all mortgage debt had never had income verified against the borrowing.

The FSA conducted a review into the self-certified mortgage market in early 2004 which concluded that lenders had sufficient controls in place against fraud.2 The FSA also issued guidelines to mortgage lenders in February 2004 which included the following information :

“From Oct 31 2004, lenders will need to comply with the MCOB 11 rules on responsible lending, which will require assessment of ability to repay whatever the LTV ratio.” 3

Non-verified lending at the end of 2003 amounted to £147bn of outstanding mortgage balances. It is a criminal offence to lie about your income to obtain a mortgage.

I believe that the practice of turning a blind eye to income verification continues today. I am only able to base this on anecdotal evidence, but I am confident that an analysis of further information would provide supporting evidence of a more substantial kind.

The income non-verified mortgages figures from lenders and earnings figures from the government statistics office ( that should be modal average earnings, i.e. what most of us earn rather than a national average figure that is swollen by massive salaries very quickly ) would show that current house prices make purchase impossible for many buyers without resorting to lying about their income.

There’s a lot of debt out there. There are many of us who prefer to play with a straight bat and comply with the law. House purchase has been put out of our reach and that of our families because of the massive scale that fraud has been, and continues to be, carried out in the mortgage market.

Please can you look into this and let me know your findings.

Yours sincerely

(Thanks to struthitsruth for that one.)

so take action, read this..

Feel agrieved, read the previous thread and contact your MP.

Tp find your MP go to

http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/alms.cfm

I am to keep trying to get the serious Fraud office to take action. If you fancy assiting with that do so, your energies may be better spent contacting your MP

I appologise for spelling and grammar

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You could also try the FSA as you are trying to highlight a potentially huge mis-selling debacle. Its objectives are pasted below and indicate that it might tackle things by looking at the mortgage lenders and loose lending practices:

Statutory objectives

Corporate Social Responsibility

The Financial Services and Markets Act gives us four statutory objectives:

market confidence: maintaining confidence in the financial system;

public awareness: promoting public understanding of the financial system;

consumer protection: securing the appropriate degree of protection for consumers; and

the reduction of financial crime: reducing the extent to which it is possible for a business to be used for a purpose connected with financial crime.

These are supported by a set of principles of good regulation which we must have regard to when discharging our functions.

The objectives also:

provide political and public accountability. Our annual report contains an assessment of the extent to which we have met these objectives. Scrutiny of the FSA by Parliamentary Committees may focus on how we achieve our objectives;

govern the way we carry out our general functions e.g. rule-making, giving advice and guidance, and determining our general policy and principles. So, for example, we are under a duty to show how the draft rules we publish relate to our statutory objectives; and

assist in providing legal accountability. Where we interpret the objectives wrongly, or fail to consider them, we can be challenged in the courts by judicial review.

Edited August 30, 2005 by Scooter

[eurows]

If that £10 is not actually yours (and you traded £10 of value before passing it on the liability) then I think a crime may well have been committed.

But you sell the liability on as it was when you took it on.

A stolen tenner

Therefore the crime may have been commited between the bank and the next party

Edited August 30, 2005 by eurows

[dog]

apom

Good effort!

[Neil D Possitt]

There must generally be a minimum loss of £1 million,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm, note to self;

"Make sure any serious frauds I commit are for exactly £999,999.99"

[apom]

You could also try the FSA as you are trying to highlight a potentially huge mis-selling debacle. Its objectives are pasted below and indicate that it might tackle things by looking at the mortgage lenders and loose lending practices:

  Statutory objectives

Corporate Social Responsibility

The Financial Services and Markets Act gives us four statutory objectives:

market confidence: maintaining confidence in the financial system;

public awareness: promoting public understanding of the financial system;

consumer protection: securing the appropriate degree of protection for consumers; and

the reduction of financial crime: reducing the extent to which it is possible for a business to be used for a purpose connected with financial crime.

These are supported by a set of principles of good regulation which we must have regard to when discharging our functions.

The objectives also:

provide political and public accountability. Our annual report contains an assessment of the extent to which we have met these objectives. Scrutiny of the FSA by Parliamentary Committees may focus on how we achieve our objectives;

govern the way we carry out our general functions e.g. rule-making, giving advice and guidance, and determining our general policy and principles. So, for example, we are under a duty to show how the draft rules we publish relate to our statutory objectives; and

assist in providing legal accountability. Where we interpret the objectives wrongly, or fail to consider them, we can be challenged in the courts by judicial review.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The FSA have been contacted by myself with the evidence I have several times over the last two years, and have refused to take action.

Currently I am waiting for another reply from them.

I have been pushing this with them for years.

Only very recently have I been trying the Police and now my MP

Check my other thread.

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...showtopic=14687