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Anger After 900 Computer Jobs Axed

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But, but, but... I thought the private sector was so much better at... ooh, everything!

:lol:

This thread has got my thinking. All this bile against the idle/unemployed on this site must be down to envy.

The winning move is not to play, and I think the penny is finally dropping.

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But, but, but... I thought the private sector was so much better at... ooh, everything!

ah, but they were working on a public contract. You learn from the best.

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Because when they let you go, you ensure they let you go on the best possible financial terms for you. You can either let the company get away with its minimal legal obligation (i.e. £300 for every year you worked there) or you can be part of a collective process that ensures that a company like HP (which makes $8bn profit a quarter) gives you a fair payout. It's quite simple.

Why should anyone get a 'payout' when leaving a company ? Why is this 'fair' ? It was only introduced to limit the impact on social benefits when people lost their jobs. People seem to forget this and have got so used to it they think they 'deserve' lots of money just to leave a job. My question is simply - why ?

You do work - you get paid. You leave - you don't get paid. Sometimes it is the employees choice to leave. Sometimes it is the employers choice for them to leave. When an employee leaves do they have to pay the company a 'redundancy' fee ? If not then why not ?

People just expect too much. "I have worked here for 10 years so if I have to leave I DESERVE to be given 20k tax free"

If anyone can give me an explanation of why that is fair or deserved I will be very impressed. It is greed and the 'I deserve it' culture personified.

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Because people are not free. They have to work to make money. And changing jobs doesnt change anything because you will face the same

problems where ever you go. There is no running away and nowhere to hide. In a Capitalist system if you have been born into the working class

you have to work to live. You dont have a choice, you cant leave and go somewhere else or do something else.

Yes you can depends on your outlook, not saying it's easy but you can. You always have a choice. Most people have to work to earn money granted but you can choose:

Location

Occupation

Colleagues

Company

How much you earn (function of education, luck,outlook on life, stamina)

Who you marry (big impact)

Who you aspire to be

Who you socialise with

Which clubs you join

Which sports you play

What you read...............

The original labour movement fought long and hard for you to have a choice and now in effect you throw that away by acting like a serf with your woe is me attitutude.

You have a choice. (not everyone does but you do)

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I rarely agree with Unite. But they did raise a profound question that some on this forum have been asking as well. Can the private sector really drive the economic recovery including the creation of very large numbers of good paying jobs?

It seems great corporations like HP do not need so many workers today as in days gone by.

I have always thought that. Which is why I think the we will manufacture things again and employ lots of people is a myth.

Surely a greenfield manufacturing plant in the UK will be automated and employ some highly skilled workers but nothing like the factories of the past.

Edited by Greg Bowman

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Yes you can depends on your outlook, not saying it's easy but you can. You always have a choice. Most people have to work to earn money granted but you can choose:

Location

Occupation

Colleagues

Company

How much you earn (function of education, luck,outlook on life, stamina)

Who you marry (big impact)

Who you aspire to be

Who you socialise with

Which clubs you join

Which sports you play

What you read...............

The original labour movement fought long and hard for you to have a choice and now in effect you throw that away by acting like a serf with your woe is me attitutude.

You have a choice. (not everyone does but you do)

What I mean is you cannot leave the system. The capitalist system.

I have worked in the public and private sectors, I have been self employed and unemployed.

I have worked full time and with agencies. But its all part of the same system.

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What I mean is you cannot leave the system. The capitalist system.

I have worked in the public and private sectors, I have been self employed and unemployed.

I have worked full time and with agencies. But its all part of the same system.

Point taken, perhaps it is about the pursuit of happiness and work we are re discovering is a diversion.

I don't know but your point is well made.

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I have always thought that. Which is why I think the we will manufacture things again and employ lots of people is a myth.

Surely a greenfield manufacturing plant in the UK will be automated and employ some highly skilled workers but nothing like the factories of the past.

True, but still a lot of spin-off jobs - packaging, marketing, facilities support, engineering support, transport, materials, local sub components manufacture (and all the spin off from those as well), accounts, personnel, management, waste processing, utilities, design and development. The list will still be huge even if there is just one ultra-efficient robot sat in the middle of the production floor making millions of items a year.

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What I mean is you cannot leave the system. The capitalist system.

I have worked in the public and private sectors, I have been self employed and unemployed.

I have worked full time and with agencies. But its all part of the same system.

So you have a choice.

Beat and change the system - good luck.

Play the system to your advantage - can be done.

Now I am not saying the first option is not a noble one. But then again is there really much point ?

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True, but still a lot of spin-off jobs - packaging, marketing, facilities support, engineering support, transport, materials, local sub components manufacture (and all the spin off from those as well), accounts, personnel, management, waste processing, utilities, design and development. The list will still be huge even if there is just one ultra-efficient robot sat in the middle of the production floor making millions of items a year.

Very true so what are we going to make... I am being serious what would work?

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During economic boom times employers promote a partnership approach to workers and their unions because it suits them but as soon as the bad economic times hit employers resort to a more confrontational approach.

Then put the blame on militant left wing union trouble makers.

Aren't they just trying to stay in business?

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Very true so what are we going to make... I am being serious what would work?

i) Don't lose the market and skillset in the first place.

ii) Good sources of long term investment.

iii) Don't price yourself out of the market - with current HP's and cost based manufacturing is finished. Massive release of land / facitlities is required to drop cost of manufacuring space to a fraction of what it is currently.

The products will follow, this country has some of the most capable people on the planet except they are being financially strangled to death.

None of the above have been tackled after the bubble burst, in fact quite the reverse so as a country we are going one way - down.

Edited by OnlyMe

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:lol:

This thread has got my thinking. All this bile against the idle/unemployed on this site must be down to envy.

The winning move is not to play, and I think the penny is finally dropping.

Yep we taxed our country to death. Sit back and watch.

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What I mean is you cannot leave the system. The capitalist system.

I have worked in the public and private sectors, I have been self employed and unemployed.

I have worked full time and with agencies. But its all part of the same system.

It strikes me as philosophically short-sighted to focus on the constraints of being in the capitalist system when your life is bound by much more fundamental laws.

Such as your biological need to eat and find adequate food...

I have bought food from the (capitalist) supermarket. I have grown my own.

I have paid restauranteurs to cook for me. I have picked wild fruit.

But it's all part of the same system. The ecosystem.

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Very true so what are we going to make... I am being serious what would work?

Ability and market demand for products are not our problem. If we were ever able to get our costs (including compliance costs) under control, we could make anything that Siemens, Damiler, Philips, Braun, Procter and Gamble, GE etc make at least as well as they do.

There is price and quality competition across the entire spectrum of products. We are not going to be able to compete with the likes of Vietnam in the low value added market. Our cost base (mostly the land upon which plants are built and employees live) is the main thing that makes it difficult for us to compete in the high value added market.

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It's natural that companies with unionised staff should be less competitive and fail. Shame for the people involved (but whoever heard of IT staff so lame that they needed union representation). Good for the economy and the fight against communism .

by barry:

Compter says no.

Economies ranked by trade union membership and ranked by GDP per head according to the World Bank.

1 Sweden: 82% 10th

2 Denmark: 76% 4th

Finland: 76% 9th

4 Norway: 57% 2th

5 Belgium: 53% 11th

6 Ireland: 45% 5th

7 Austria: 37% 8th

oopps another one caught out.. looks like you are wrong.... :P:P

where is this fight against communism taking place in the uk.......can you tell me please?

Edited by geoffk

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Why should anyone get a 'payout' when leaving a company ? Why is this 'fair' ? It was only introduced to limit the impact on social benefits when people lost their jobs. People seem to forget this and have got so used to it they think they 'deserve' lots of money just to leave a job. My question is simply - why ?

You do work - you get paid. You leave - you don't get paid. Sometimes it is the employees choice to leave. Sometimes it is the employers choice for them to leave. When an employee leaves do they have to pay the company a 'redundancy' fee ? If not then why not ?

People just expect too much. "I have worked here for 10 years so if I have to leave I DESERVE to be given 20k tax free"

If anyone can give me an explanation of why that is fair or deserved I will be very impressed. It is greed and the 'I deserve it' culture personified.

It quite often suits company's. They decide to lay people off , often the plan is not something that is decided and implemented overnight but takes place over a peroid of time. If staff know that in a certain amount of time they will not have a job they will naturally have no loyalty to the company and start looking for a new job. The company will not want to loose their staff untill it suits them , so a good pay off keeps the staff like a golden handcuff untill they are not needed anymore .

I worked for a firm that outsourced over a peroid of ten years closing down a site that employed 4,000 workers . They wanted and needed continuation of production while the shut down happened which was done bit by bit over the ten years. Everybody knew that they were on borrowed time , the leaving package kept people there untill it suited the firm to lay them off. If there had been no pay off the staff would have left to suit themselves leaving the company in limbo.

I noticed that some who had not been there that long and therefore got a smaller pay off , did in a few cases find another job and left in their own time without any pay off but with no reguard to the companies business needs , the company could not have coped with contiued production during the shut down if staff had left as and when it suited them in large numbers. Dangling the pay off in front of peoples noses kept them doing what the company wanted them to do.

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Why should anyone get a 'payout' when leaving a company ? Why is this 'fair' ? It was only introduced to limit the impact on social benefits when people lost their jobs. People seem to forget this and have got so used to it they think they 'deserve' lots of money just to leave a job. My question is simply - why ?

You do work - you get paid. You leave - you don't get paid. Sometimes it is the employees choice to leave. Sometimes it is the employers choice for them to leave. When an employee leaves do they have to pay the company a 'redundancy' fee ? If not then why not ?

People just expect too much. "I have worked here for 10 years so if I have to leave I DESERVE to be given 20k tax free"

If anyone can give me an explanation of why that is fair or deserved I will be very impressed. It is greed and the 'I deserve it' culture personified.

There is a lot of theory behind how redundancy schemes operate but in simplistic terms think of it as the goal of ensuring the most efficient separation between a company and a worker. Make of that what you will - you will probably need to do a bit of thinking for yourself. Sorry.

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A lot of these things like company pensions, holiday pay and redundancy money came about after WWII because employers had to compete for

workers. If company A provides a company pension and company B doesnt well all else being the same you will go and work for company A.

Whats changed over the last 30 years is that through neo liberal policies and globalisation capital has access to the worlds labour and feels it no longer

needs to offer these things to attract workers.

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It quite often suits company's. They decide to lay people off , often the plan is not something that is decided and implemented overnight but takes place over a peroid of time. If staff know that in a certain amount of time they will not have a job they will naturally have no loyalty to the company and start looking for a new job. The company will not want to loose their staff untill it suits them , so a good pay off keeps the staff like a golden handcuff untill they are not needed anymore .

I worked for a firm that outsourced over a peroid of ten years closing down a site that employed 4,000 workers . They wanted and needed continuation of production while the shut down happened which was done bit by bit over the ten years. Everybody knew that they were on borrowed time , the leaving package kept people there untill it suited the firm to lay them off. If there had been no pay off the staff would have left to suit themselves leaving the company in limbo.

I noticed that some who had not been there that long and therefore got a smaller pay off , did in a few cases find another job and left in their own time without any pay off but with no reguard to the companies business needs , the company could not have coped with contiued production during the shut down if staff had left as and when it suited them in large numbers. Dangling the pay off in front of peoples noses kept them doing what the company wanted them to do.

Good point. However this does not apply to companies like RBS/Lloyds or the likes recently. What happened was not expected by the staff. The period from realisation to see ya later was far shorter. Yet they still gave extremely good terms. I just find it a bit odd. The amounts that some people receive more than anything. And the fact many think they 'deserve' it due to their 'service'.

There is a lot of theory behind how redundancy schemes operate but in simplistic terms think of it as the goal of ensuring the most efficient separation between a company and a worker. Make of that what you will - you will probably need to do a bit of thinking for yourself. Sorry.

As above. I see what you are saying and I understand the logic. However it is the attitude of many of the workers that is unpleasant IMO. They 'deserve' it. No they don't. As you say it is just the way companies do these things to keep things going. Far far too many employees think however this money is 'owed' them. I find that logic rather strange.

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A lot of these things like company pensions, holiday pay and redundancy money came about after WWII because employers had to compete for

workers. If company A provides a company pension and company B doesnt well all else being the same you will go and work for company A.

Whats changed over the last 30 years is that through neo liberal policies and globalisation capital has access to the worlds labour and feels it no longer

needs to offer these things to attract workers.

Yep. And for many industries they don't. They can offer less and less benefits and still get the same people applying.

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Good point. However this does not apply to companies like RBS/Lloyds or the likes recently. What happened was not expected by the staff. The period from realisation to see ya later was far shorter. Yet they still gave extremely good terms. I just find it a bit odd. The amounts that some people receive more than anything. And the fact many think they 'deserve' it due to their 'service'.

No with RBS/Lloyds they could have just chucked the people out , however when firms have a cull they do like to do it with the minimum of fuss and bother , a big sweatner makes the whole process much eaiser for the company . Someone just thrown out the door with very little might be more inclined to look about and see if there is anyway they could make a claim against the company or throw a spanner in the works. Sabotage can and does happen , think about someone in RBS/Lloyds who was loosing their job and blamed the top managment's incompetence for their plight , what would they have to loose by inflicting an act of sabotage on the firm who was kicking them out with nothing.

Also the company want's to keep the remaining staff. If those staff see the redundant ones leaving with nothing , they could be more inclined to look for other employment in the future , but knowing that if they ever get the boot there is a pay off waiting will induce them to stay.

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No with RBS/Lloyds they could have just chucked the people out , however when firms have a cull they do like to do it with the minimum of fuss and bother , a big sweatner makes the whole process much eaiser for the company . Someone just thrown out the door with very little might be more inclined to look about and see if there is anyway they could make a claim against the company or throw a spanner in the works. Sabotage can and does happen , think about someone in RBS/Lloyds who was loosing their job and blamed the top managment's incompetence for their plight , what would they have to loose by inflicting an act of sabotage on the firm who was kicking them out with nothing.

Also the company want's to keep the remaining staff. If those staff see the redundant ones leaving with nothing , they could be more inclined to look for other employment in the future , but knowing that if they ever get the boot there is a pay off waiting will induce them to stay.

I hear what you are saying and I agree. However it is all from the employers side. My point is about the 'Deserve it' culture that permeates with so many employees today.

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I hear what you are saying and I agree. However it is all from the employers side. My point is about the 'Deserve it' culture that permeates with so many employees today.

Yes agreed , people do think that they deserve it . That is human nature , where i worked it was looked on like an insurance policy that paid out when the job went .

Even before the shut down very few people just left they did their years and then took a pay out with an early pension. However it worked both ways in the firms favour it kept a compliant work force and in the workers favour it gave them a sense of security that they would not one day just find themselves unemployed without a cusion.

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Yes agreed , people do think that they deserve it . That is human nature , where i worked it was looked on like an insurance policy that paid out when the job went .

Even before the shut down very few people just left they did their years and then took a pay out with an early pension. However it worked both ways in the firms favour it kept a compliant work force and in the workers favour it gave them a sense of security that they would not one day just find themselves unemployed without a cusion.

Yep - I suppose if both sides are happy with it then so be it.

Would be good if many permanent staff members thought about this stuff prior to moaning about how much contractors get !!

Although as we move to a more temporary workforce - I reckon many will see life on a different side of the fence. I imagine some will like and some will not. Same as always.

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  • 277 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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